Floyd wrote:If there is a God, why is there evil? Why do bad things happen to good people? Why is there so much needless suffering in the world, from natural disasters and such? Why would a loving God do this?

You have to understand what\who God is.

God is the spirit of Truth and Righteousness. We are the hands of God. All God can do is tell us what is right. It is up to us to decide to do what is right or not. That is why there is evil in the world. because we do it, not God.

Natural disasters are not evil. there is no "intent" that is necessary to do evil. They are unfortunate, they are harmful, but not evil.
Dieing is a part of life, without death the world would become overpopulated and unable to provide enough room or food for all. By dieing we allow room for babies to be born and grow from laughing children to helpful adults.

All God does is tell us "do good". And of course God inspires us and gives us faith and strength to do that good.

God Bless You, always.

ape wrote:

james1951 wrote:All God does is tell us "do good". And of course God inspires us and gives us faith and strength to do that good.

God Bless You, always.

Hi James 1951!
But isn't good determined by the attitude or spirit of truth IN which we do good?
So isn't evil determined by the attitude or spirit of lying IN which we do goo?
Like this:
Here is the Phar doing GOOD in the evil spirit of HATE for the evil: That evil spirit made his good evil.
Luke 18:
9And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others [who were evil or unrighteous or wrong]:

10Two men went up into the temple to pray;
the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

11The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

12I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

13And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Here is God:
Isaiah 45:
7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

How does God do evil? In Love or in Hate?
Job 42:
11Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold.

Just because the Pharisee claimed to be good does not mean he was.
It is said our judgement of "goodness" is as filthy rags next to what god judges as good, because Gid sees the motive, not just the actions. The same actions can have good or evil motives.
Give a child a treat to - lure him for evil intent
Give a child a treat to - reward good effort

Is giving the child a treat good or evil? You see good and evil lies in the intent not the activity.

To harm or deceive others for self promotion or gratification may not really be a good activity.

Juice wrote:O-Very well said except I don't think free will equates to freedom. I believe free will is a natural state gifted by God which allows man to either live by the knowledge of Gods Grace or not.

Anything else are just earthly choices which in fact are the things which enslave. As one does not have a choice not to eat or drink, or to breath. In these instance we are aware of the consequences of each which is death. So to with God whose Grace has allowed the choice of belief which can lead to life and death similarly.

We often use our "free will" in such a way as to give up our "freedom", in positive or in negative ways.

We give up our freedom when we use our free will to tend to or help others.
We give up our freedom when we use our free will to attach to an addiction like drugs, sex, money, etc.

nameless wrote:

Floyd wrote:If there is a God, why is there evil?

The question is meaningless.
One can just as well ask;
"If there is a god, why is there 'blue'?"
or "..'hamburgers'?"
or "...'good'?"
Meaningless, in itself.

It is not meaningless at all when you concider that god often is used to represent goodness. Evil then becomes the antithesis or opposite of god. Evil is apart from god so to speak.

If you use god merely to represent the creator whatever that is with no attachmenty to the sapience of the creation then perhaps you may have a point.

However how can the creator have no attachment to its creation?

nameless wrote:

Belinda wrote:Presumably if God is all-powerful he could do anything including making a world devoid of suffering.Since there is no known world that is devoid of suffering then there is no such entity as an all-powerful God.

Why is it that 'suffering' and 'pain' are 'errors' or 'faults' or 'wrong' or 'evil' or 'mistakes'?
This 'god' must operate on particular peoples egoic whims?
There is nothing 'imperfect' in pain or suffering. It's just 'uncomfortable', and there's nothing imperfect about discomfort, either!

My understanding is that pain is commonly a signal that there is something wrong or amiss. It is a signal to stop doing the things causing the pain as it is damaging your body for example. Take your hand out of the fire. Set and stablize the broken bone so that it heals. Find a way to deal with the situation that is causing you stress and making life unpleasant.

Evil is another issue. When someone does something that causes you pain and makes you uncomfortable, that is "wrong" IMHO. Thus the code for a doctor is do no harm and the code for those who are spiritually minded is do no harm.

Belinda wrote:

You've made the fallacy of composition; just because there is evil in the world does not mean the world is evil.

I have not.

Presumably if God is all-powerful he could do anything including making a world devoid of suffering.Since there is no known world that is devoid of suffering then there is no such entity as an all-powerful God.

I am glad you phrased it as "no "known" world. Just because you do not know of one does not mean that one does not exist.

It is interesting however that much of the goodness Jesus taught involved easing suffering. If we have no suffering how do we express ourlove. If no one hungers or thirsts who is there to give drink and food to? WHo is there to comfort in sickness or in prison?

But when we have given that love then the suffering ceases. Love is the condition of keeping the suffering at bey. With perfect love there is nom suffering. We are the hands of God. We are given the gift of life the ability to find our own happiness by saving others from suffering.

The perfect world will be when there is so much love that none of us suffer but all attend to each other in such detail as to prevent the suffering before it occurs.

ape wrote:

james1951 wrote:

Belinda wrote:

You've made the fallacy of composition; just because there is evil in the world does not mean the world is evil.

I have not.

Presumably if God is all-powerful he could do anything including making a world devoid of suffering.Since there is no known world that is devoid of suffering then there is no such entity as an all-powerful God.

I am glad you phrased it as "no "known" world. Just because you do not know of one does not mean that one does not exist.

It is interesting however that much of the goodness Jesus taught involved easing suffering. If we have no suffering how do we express ourlove. If no one hungers or thirsts who is there to give drink and food to? WHo is there to comfort in sickness or in prison?

But when we have given that love then the suffering ceases. Love is the condition of keeping the suffering at bey. With perfect love there is nom suffering. We are the hands of God. We are given the gift of life the ability to find our own happiness by saving others from suffering.

The perfect world will be when there is so much love that none of us suffer but all attend to each other in such detail as to prevent the suffering before it occurs.

Hi James!
Just sharing!
God can NOT make pleasure without pain and suffering because without pain we wd not know when we were sick!
See?

I have to disagree on this as I was writing my last message I realized that indeed the pleasure comes from the absense of suffering, the absense of suffering comes from loving each other. It is the lack of love that causes the suffering. That is our choice to allow suffering or to prevent suffering.

There are people in this world who have so much food and drink and medicine that they could never use it all. Why then do they choose to horde it and not provide wells and farm equipment to ease the suffering of those who have no food. We could produce medicine at a fraction of the cost we do and yet we do not make enough to ease the suffering of those who cannot give us money.

Will the time come when the masses demand that those who hourde all the wealth of food and medicine and actually cause suffering to keep their power, release that wealth to the entire world? Or do we have to wait for the destruction of the world before those power mongers finally learn it really isnt worth the suffering they cause to keep their power?

Belinda wrote:James1951, I agree that pain and suffering can stimulate beneficial change. However, please refer to the sufferings of Biblical Job whose sufferings were non-productive, as one famous example of the many sufferings in the world that are non-productive and many of which cannot be relieved by medical, engineering, political, empathetic or any other means.

Perhaps the one exception that can relieve suffering the practice of yoga when it is as thorough as the original yoga. Unfortunately to do yoga of this quality is a long study, often over a lifetime, and is incompatible with living in the world. I can provide a reference for this.

It is interesting however that much of the goodness Jesus taught involved easing suffering. If we have no suffering how do we express ourlove. If no one hungers or thirsts who is there to give drink and food to? WHo is there to comfort in sickness or in prison?

The claim that suffering is justifiable because it provides the opportunity for more fortunate persons to be charitable is obscene. Jesus never taught that suffering is justifiable for this reason.The miraculous cures wrought by Jesus are nowadays often held to be regrettable inclusions in the Gospels.

Any suffering can be beneficial. We learn from suffering. We learn patience. We learn endurance. If it don't kill you it will make you stronger.
It does not mean that suffering is good. It just means that sometimes when life gives you lemons you can use that as an opportunity to make lemonade.

That is the mistake so many people make of taking things in the wrong context.

People might think god sends people to hell for not doing what he says. Not true. The things he tells us not to do will cause us harm and all god does is keep saying dont do that it will hurt you.

I find this analagy useful.

A mother tells her child "do not play on the street". The child disobeys a truck comes along and kills him.

The mother did not look out the windows see her child disobey, call a trucking company to run over her child for disobeying her. That is how people think of god.

The mother told her child not to do that because it was dangerous and harmful just like god tells us not to do bad things because it is dangerous and harmful. When we do them and get hurt we blame god for it when all along god was just trying to warn us.

If the child gets off with cuts and cruises that suffering may be good if it teaches him not to play on the road.

Or a needle. I hear children scream as if they are being killed when doctors try to give them a needle. But that little pain and suffering could prevent them from getting a horrible or deadly disease.

I am not saying suffering in and of itself is good. But we can benefit from it if we are wise.

Suffering pain often is a warning to fix something that could be very harmful or even deadly if we do not tend to it.

I am sure there is a bible verse something to that effect about but i cant remember it right now.

The bible is full of such wise information if you are willing to look at it in the right context.

Belinda wrote:

Belinda,

I understand what you mean, but if that's true, it could not be the "word" of god.

(Whitetrshsoldier)

Is the Bible the word of God, or is that just what some people say about the Bible?

Satan tempted Jesus with the bible (gods words) the serpent tempted adam and eve with gods words.

Its not who says the words or where they are written, but the spirit in which those words are read which is important.

The bible is the word of god because many of the people who wrote those words were trying to the best of their ability to understand what the "right\good" thing was to do. And they wrote what they thought the spirit of goodness and rightness was telling them. But they were only people. God can only speak to us, inasmuch as we are able and willing to hear and understand him.

We are like children , it takes time for a child to grow up and learn from experience and wisdom that which the parents sometimes has to enforce with stern measures when they do not yet understand and must simply obey because the parent says so "or else".