Xris wrote:

Fanman wrote:Hi Xris,

We don't agree on the concept of God. You believe that nature is god; while I believe that Jehovah is God. As far as I am aware, Jehovah never changes, he is sometimes angry and destructive, and at other times he is kind, loving and merciful. He makes no secret of himself either, nor does he profess to be anything else than he describes.

God is the concept and you have a description. So you believe and trust in a god that can send two angry bears to kill children?

Xris back on the bears? My question is where do you get your idea of just and unjust? If you believe that the sending of the bears is unjust, then where does your belief in the just and unjust come from?

Here is a quote from a great individual that I think helps reinforce the possibility of God's existence.

"If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning:just as if there were no light in the universe and therefore no creatures with eyes, we should never know it was dark. Dark would be a word without meaning."

I think you may have missed the point Wooden Shoe, and it isnt' my quote I'm not vain enough to say it came from a great individual and mean myself. You did raise a good question though, "Why has nature evolved imagination?" Surley not for survival, some of the creatures that have remained the most unchanged by evolution survive quite well without it.

Wooden shoe wrote:Hi dparrot.

Oh I think I got the point just fine, this person wanted to use this lame statement as a proof of a deity and our duty to obey some deity.

By the way, I did write that it was your quote, and I did not say I was quoting you.

Regarding imagination, it is not limited to humans, however humans have it in a much larger measure.
It is the very best ability we have, it is exactly related to our survival, it has allowed us to imagine and make weapons and tools to give us an advantage. Without imagination there would be no humans.

Regards, John.

Plants, viruses, and Sharks are getting along just fine without imagination.
On the subject of fish here is another one of those statements. "When we fall in the water we feel wet. Fish never feel wet." I think this goes along with the other statement.

On your quote "Without imagination there would be no humans." Are you reffering to God? Before humans developed an imagination they were not human? What were they? What in evolution is the precurser to imagination? In other words what did imagination evolve from? if it is not a gift from God.

Xris wrote:Eric and Clogs. If you both have decided that nature did not make a determined effort to create us, what are the alternatives? Chance? Chance has to be the only alternative( not unless you can dream up a third choice) so we must consider the odds of intelligent life occurring. If nature is blind beast that has no direction only circumstance what are the odds? We have no other planet to examine so the odds have to imagined. Can either of you give us your considered odds?

Xris I can only assume your talking about me and Clogs. So my odds are out of all the other living things on earth humans are the only ones that have developed an imagination so great that we can use it for things other than survival. With Clogs's example of the cat I don't believe the cat taking the ball on top of the table and knocking it off to simulate John throwing it is imagination. Instead I think it is the same thing as a monkey picking up a stick out of a termite hill and realizing it has food on it so the monkey tries it again. Animals can learn, but knowledge and Imagination do not equal.

No doubt here that there are very intelligent animals but will you agree that there is a difference between intelligence and imagination? Children are known for their great imaginations not their intelligence.

Wooden shoe wrote:Hi Xris.

I have no way of knowing the conditions necessary for the initial life forms to come into existence, so will not even try to give the odds.
I have at times toyed with the idea of seeding via asteroid, but that just places the question one step back.
I do think that life started in a number of places, so there must have been a very first, and the condition that enabled life to start must have existed for an extended period of time.
And yes my friend, I think it was the right circumstances which came together that caused life to start, because of the lack of evidence for any other.


Hi dparrot.
I think you are stuck in a creationist kind of mentality that cannot except the evidence.
You want to believe that humans have a quality all their own, and therefore never before seen in nature.
We are connected to all other life forms, and we are what we are because of all that has preceded us.

Regards, John.

So you are saying that there is no difference between imagination and knowledge? Dolphin's are very smart creatures and so are monkeys but to prove that their imagination is a product of evolution is much different then proving that there intelligence is a product of evolution.

-- Updated Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:00 pm to add the following --

Also how do you assume I'm stuck in a creationist kind of mentality when I'm using evolution to help exlplain my point. I think your making the mistake of just righting everything off on evolution. Imagination is not neccesary for our survival but intelligence is. So why do we have Imagination?

Wooden shoe wrote:Hi dparrot.

Imagination is seeing what is not.
In the story of the monkey, it first had to imagine what to do, and have the intelligence to execute on the imagination.
With humans, they first had to imagine a rock attached to a stick might be a good weapon, but then they had to use their intelligence to figure out how to make a knot fot the leather straps that would hold.

Regards, John.

This is not an example of imagination just logic and reason which are parts of intelligence.

Wooden shoe wrote:Hi dparrot.

Would you be kind enough to give me your idea of what imagination is?
Would you agree that dreaming is a lot due to imagination?
We seem to be dealing with a difference as to what imagination is.

Regards, John.

An example of imagination would be concieving that there is a God.

I can only speak for my dreams, and I would say they are influenced by both my knowledge of the world and my imagination.

For both of us imagination must be something different, but can we agree that it is not the same thing as knowledge and intelligence?

Xris wrote:

dparrott wrote:

Wooden shoe wrote:Hi dparrot.

Imagination is seeing what is not.
In the story of the monkey, it first had to imagine what to do, and have the intelligence to execute on the imagination.
With humans, they first had to imagine a rock attached to a stick might be a good weapon, but then they had to use their intelligence to figure out how to make a knot fot the leather straps that would hold.

Regards, John.

This is not an example of imagination just logic and reason which are parts of intelligence.

Paroo, Paro
I do believe you are being slightly obstinate friend. The monkey observes the little old ladies, he has to imagine urinating on them and find it amusing. He then has to create a reason for them to come close enough. He then has to create that reason in his imagination. He may have to logically decide if his plan may work but that is part of his imagination. He imagines them gathering around him laughing at his silly antics. It was one of the best practical jokes I have ever observed and he did not need six pints to find it funny. You are flogging a dead horse trying to convince us it was not imaginative.xris

On the monkey subject how do you know that the monkey planned to pee on those people? If by your definition of imagination how can you know that you are not "seeing something that is not,"? The fact that you refuse to think the monkey story can only be interpreted to mean they have imagination is being obstinate. The monkey sees the old ladies, the monkey likes attention "so does my dog" the monkey pees on the ladies and is excited by their reaction. Where do you see imagination again? Because I don't.

-- Updated Tue Mar 06, 2012 5:09 pm to add the following --

Xris wrote: I watched a monkey, at the zoo, encourage a group of old ladies to approach his cage by the making the most terrible noise. When they were three deep, laughing at his antics, he urinated on them with great delight. Now that required a sick sense of humour, a great deal of foresight and a deep understanding of human behaviour.

Through knowledge of what has happened in the past the monkey new that if it made horrible noises people would take interest in him."Not imagination".

He urinated on them with great delight. Great delight is an emotion, "Not imagination".

Now that required a sick sense of humor. Your personal interpretation ,"Not imagination".

A great deal of foresight. Foresight or understanding of logical process intelligence, "Not imagination".

A deep understanding of human behavior. Understanding also intelligence, "Not imagination".

Wooden shoe wrote:Hi dparrot, you wrote:
I can only speak for my dreams, and I would say they are influenced by both my knowledge of the world and my imagination.
For both of us imagination must be something different, but can we agree that it is not the same thing as knowledge and intelligence?

Yes we have no argument regarding your last statement.
I see all three to be connected, as there is no imagination without knowledge and intelligence.
When I talk about imagination in animals it is a very rudimentary form and should not be judged as comparing with modern humans, but we can see that our imagination had its beginning a long way back in the evolutionary chain.
We have to remember that at the present the earliest HOMO that has been found goes back about three million years, and it is possible that our branch split of many years before that time.

In evolution we are dealing with small incremental changes, not big leaps. The eye did not all of a sudden apear fully capable but through many very small changes, and the same goes for imagination.

Regards, John.

When you say "I see all three to be connected," does this mean if you don't have one then you lose the other two? If so then we do not see it the same way. Here is my example intelligence is the ablility to learn, knowledge is what you have learned and immagination is comming up with a reason for why you are intelligent. Immagination serves no purpose in survival.

Wooden shoe wrote:Hi dparrot.

Imagination is the ability to take unrelated things and sees the possibility to combine them in a new way creating something not known before.
Imagination is an authors ability to create a fictional novel by creating it in its mind.
Of course knowledge is necessary as is intelligence.
Imagination was the driver for the person who combined the internal combustion with a carriage to make the first automobile.
Any advancements in technology was initiated by someones imagining the possibility.
Even the sea otter had to have imagination when it started using rocks in order to open shells to get at the edible part.

Regards, John.

I can agree that intelligence and knowledge are necessary, but imagination? Is imagination neccasary? Did the sea otter need imagination to come to this conclusion or would intelligence and knowledge suffice?

When building a structure the arcitect uses imagination, the engineers use knowledge, the construction workers use tools.

Wooden shoe wrote:Hi dparrot.

Here is a good definition:

imagination
noun
1. creativity, vision, invention, ingenuity, enterprise, insight, inspiration, wit, originality, inventiveness, resourcefulness He has a logical mind and a little imagination.
2. mind's eye, fancy Long before I went there, the place was alive in my imagination.
3. interest, attention, curiosity, fascination Italian football captured the imagination of the nation last season.
Quotations
"The Possible's slow fuse is lit"
"By the Imagination" [Emily Dickinson]
"People can die of mere imagination" [Geoffrey Chaucer The Miller's Tale]
"Nature uses imagination to lift her work of creation to even higher levels" [Luigi Pirandello Six Characters in Search of an Author]
"I have imagination, and nothing that is real is alien to me" [George Santayana Little Essays]
"My imagination makes me human and makes me a fool; it gives me all the world and exiles me from it" [Ursula Le Guin Winged: the Creatures on My Mind]
"Imagination, the supreme delight of the immortal and the immature, should be limited. In order to enjoy life, we should not enjoy it too much" [Vladimir Nabokov Speak, Memory]
Collins Thesaurus of the English Language – Complete and Unabridged 2nd Edition. 2002 © HarperCollins Publishers 1995, 2002


Regards, John.

Very nice quotes John. I especially like these two that says "Only in men's imagination does every truth find an effective and undeniable existence. Imagination, not invention, is the supreme master of art as of life" "My imagination makes me human and makes me a fool; it gives me all the world and exiles me from it" [Ursula Le Guin Winged: the Creatures on My Mind]

Why do you think the definition is not a definition but just words that describe other things? I beleive this might be one of those words that cannot be properly defined and is often missused.

Back to the quote that brought this all up.

"If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning: just as, if there were no light in the universe and therefor no creatures with eyes, we should never know it was dark. Dark would be a word without meaning."

Through nature and evolution we gained intelligence and knowledge but imagination was gained through divine intervention so that we could concieve of the divine. Without imagination we could of never concieved God. This is what seperates us from the other creatures of the earth.

This is what I believe, this is my argument for God's existence.

Xris wrote:Strange when even questioning an animals imagination is not about logical debate but dogmatic faith.

It is not that strange when the topic is "an argument for God's existence" don't try to belittle the argument just disagree with it.

-- Updated Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:19 pm to add the following --

If you want to believe animals have imagination then go for it, but I believe imagination is what sets us apart.

If you could present me with a monkey who painted a picture of a flower using tools they created just for the purpose of painting the flower, then I would concede my point. If we find monkey cave paintings one day and can tell discernable that a monkey indeed painted it, then I will concede my point. If you can give me any example of a monkey worshiping a god it imagined, then I will concede my point. Until then I will hold on to my belief that immagination is what makes us different and is not a part of evolution like "knowledge and intelligence," meaning that it must have been a gift.

Xris wrote:Faith by definition avoids the truth. You both persist in a god that has never shown himself to one living soul and your only proof is a strange book that without it's false authority would be classified as simple fiction.

Faith in itself is just a word, why do personify it? Imagination. Persistence is the quality that helped imagination invent the light bulb. That book you call strange was a product of Imagination and it is obviously not my only proof because imagination is my other proof.

Xris wrote:. You have not one scrap of evidence.

Imagination is certainly more than a scrap.

Xris wrote: Yes you are right I have no respect for religion or the faith that maintains it. It's outdated medieval and has nothing to recommend it.

This is what you believe or in other words you have faith in this statement. By your definition Faith avoids the truth.

Xris wrote: Why should the debate about the imagination animals posses be so significant we have to ask. .

The debate is significant because imagination does not serve a purpose in evolution like intelligence and knowledge does.

Xris wrote:. I can guarantee that if I found a monkey that produced a painting from his imagination you would both find an excuse. There are monkeys that paint and they sell for vast amounts but I bet you would argue they do not resemble anything tangible.

Do they paint because a human like you or I gave them the instruments to do so? I have surely never heard of monkeys with no human contact painting on their own. Have you? If you found this I would not have an excuse.

Xris wrote: You have rejected my monkey planning to urinate on old ladies, wolves imagining their domain, parrots asking for food. Dolphins playing does that require imagination.

On the monkey describe to me what part took imagination and not just Knowledge and intelligence.

On the wolves leaving their scent to claim their domain explain to me how this is more than Knowledge and intelligence.

Parrots will imitate any noise they hear and if they can make a specific noise and receive food, again I see intelligence but not imagination.

Dolphins playing, dogs playing, an animal playing does not prove that they have imagination just emotions, intelligence, and knowledge. All of which is not imagination.

Xris wrote: It's not this particular subject it's ever subject that conflicts with your faith. .

This subject actually backs up my faith.

Xris wrote:Bears killing children can be excused for some weird concept of death and punishment. Ignore the thousands killed by an angry god. Layer upon layer of avoidance and excuses for a book that's filled with contradictions and horrors perpetrated by a god that loves us but destroys us.

We would not have of conceived of God without this strange thing that has no place in evolution called imagination.

Xris I cannot convince you of anything and it is not my goal to, so please do not take my arguments as me trying to get you to believe the same things I do.

-- Updated Wed Mar 07, 2012 4:28 pm to add the following --

Wooden shoe wrote:Hi dparrot.

Well you came close but you had things reversed, God did not give humans imagination, it was human imagination that brought God into existence.
And the monkey is much to intelligent to bother with such tomfoolery.

A monkey does not have the imagination to deal with such tomfoolery.
The monkey is intelligent but has no immagination and this is why you shouldn't hold your breath waiting for a monkey to write a symphony.

Imagination did not bring God into existence but gave humans the ability to concieve of such.

Wooden shoe wrote:That god is made in mans image is so easy to see right on this website,as various "christians" all worship a different God.

I'm glad you brought this up because it is when I believe we recieved imagination.