Jump to: Board index
October 27th, 2010, 3:05 am
October 27th, 2010, 12:09 pm
October 27th, 2010, 12:35 pm
Inthenever wrote: What I'm pointing out is the incoherence of an omnimax god creator. From god's perspective, there can be no free will. We may have an illusion of free will, but an omnicient creator necessarily makes all "choices" for its creation because it knows the outcome of each design decision. You mentioned judging the "soul," but in this context, the soul is no more independent than any other piece of the puzzle. In order for this to work, there would have to be two "gods," an effectively omniscient judge and an effectively omnipotent creator (disclaimer: I am aware that neither omniscence or omnipotence are logically possible).
October 27th, 2010, 1:41 pm
Marabod wrote:Christianity is the main religion in all countries where I was ever living - I would be gladly "bashing" the remote religions too but I have little personal experience with them and do not know what exactly do they do to the people, while about Christianity I know enough to be able to say something.
October 27th, 2010, 2:14 pm
Inthenever wrote:action A = what we might call an evil or good act, supposing that morality can exist in this scenario
God intends action A, god intends the creature's intent, by his creation choices. It is illogical for god to qualitatively judge the creature as an independent entity (as it is not). It would be a judgement on himself. You are treating the intent of man as separate from the intent of god. It is not. It may be that god intends the intent of man/action of man for different purposes. Both intents can be true. But, the intents are both god's.
In the scenario of an omnimax god, freewill seems like it must be an illusion. That you may intend an evil act is irrelevant as you were designed to do so (pre-determined). You had no choice but to conform to that design. Hence, there cannot be freewill for the human given these parameters. Judgement then, is illogical.
October 27th, 2010, 2:32 pm
Inthenever wrote:"If deciding between actions is possible, then judgement is possible as well"
From our perspective, we can decide between actions. However, from god's perspective, he's already made all of those decisions. If he's omniscient at the time of creation, how can he create something with free will?
October 27th, 2010, 2:48 pm
Inthenever wrote:"I am sorry, how can you know anything about God's perspective??!! "
Well, it's part of the definition of God, yes? Or at least some gods. The idea of omniscience, omnipotence, and omnipresence tells us something about god's perspective. At the least, it tells us about what god knows when he creates you.
October 27th, 2010, 3:00 pm
October 28th, 2010, 12:39 pm
Inthenever wrote:"Especially if it is to be applied to something we know nothing about, and can only make assumptions about it.
But, in this discussion, we do know something about it. Hence, the underlying assumptions of omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence, creation, judge. That's 5 qualities of which we can discuss the ramifications.
Inthenever wrote:- God characteristics = omnimax
- God designed everything in the universe
- God was aware, bu definition of the consequences of all design choices
- Within the universe is contained humans, in whole. This includes any perception of self. In other words, the mind, which is the self-perceived source of will, or intention.
- As god created that intention, and all conditions surrounding it, and was aware of the consequences on that intention when making all design choices, god's design choices determines all intention. Everything we see is literally a manifestation of god's will. We cannot be independent actors given those parameters. There can be limited free will between those blinded to the facts (i.e., not god) but to god, the objective reality must be (given the assumptions of omnimax) that there are no independent behaviors/thoughts to judge (he designed them all).
- Where is the flaw in the above logic? I cannot see it.
October 28th, 2010, 2:43 pm