Alan do you believe the evidence? If so do you think he is benevolent? Why, might I ask, is he so elusive to cause us to question his existence?
Desire to find god or want him to exist is the driving ambition of the faithful. To imaging we are alone with no figure of refuge or no higher power to rely on is a fear all men have experienced. Yes you are correct in stating god needs to be created by man. He is essential for the vast majority of humanity. I Believed that god existed but the doubts became so unbearable I had to accept the truth of his illusion. Once it became clear it was a desire rather than the truth I became free. freer than I had ever been. God is a burden, a mirage that stops man from examining himself and the truth.
So no Alan your evidence is based on need rather than good judgement.Thanks xris
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November 21st, 2011, 11:21 am
November 26th, 2011, 8:47 am
If you can not know or understand the god then as you say it is impossible to debate. If god is beyond understanding or description then there is no point in debating him or it. You can debate the evidence but not the conclusion.PaulNZ wrote:Define your "God" please.
First cause? Nature? Human consciousness? The sub-conscious? Some older looking chap with a white beard hiding just beyond that cloud? Once your perception of god is known then proof of that god's existence can be discussed. There seems to be a common assumption around these parts that whenever we mention god it is the Judeo/Christian version we are all talking about.
The less supernatural your god concept is, the more likely that any evidence attributed to that concept will be accepted as proof.
To me, god is unknowable and as such cannot be defined. I understand concepts of god can have value for individuals, and a belief in any such concept can provide that individual with a vehicle to circumnavigate aspects of their personality, which may otherwise hinder them acheiving particular goals - for example the 12 steps.
Without a definition of the concept of god being asked about, it is difficult to partake in a discussion.
November 27th, 2011, 10:01 am
I possible agree with most of your views but there still a need to enquire that even you must find essential. You appear to reject many things on the assumption that god does not exist. Why should I not argue for free will in its simplest form without requiring to believe in god. Why should I not argue for a determined universe and still ask what mystery determined that determination. If god is beyond human comprehension does it make the concept invalid or make humans inadequate? If only the philosophy of religion was that simple.
November 27th, 2011, 11:31 am
Freedom to choose or the ability to choose freely without hindrance is not a human ability but it is something we aspire to. Our imagination should and can take us beyond our imperfect mind. We maybe determined but we can influence that determination . If it was not so, we would have stagnated and still be ignorant savages. We exert our limited freedom for change, so changing what was determined. Our freedom that invented god is also destroying his image.
November 27th, 2011, 1:28 pm
There are many scenarios we could speculate on. Part of very advanced computer game or just a very delusional dream where reality awaits us on waking from this life. A natural system of life and death with no indication of god. A pause in greater game where this life is just a insignificant interlude. If you can find evidence for any of them, they are relevant. But just as there is none for our accepted description of god there is no reason to believe we are part of an elaborate movie written by god. I do believe the future can be revealed but that does not indicate we have no part in writting that future.
November 27th, 2011, 4:18 pm
Dramhur wrote:Ok, this is just what it boils down to, what we believe. In the absence of any serious possibility to really explain things, what remains is faith, and that often tends to be just wishful thinking. There really isn't a good reason to prefer one hypothesis over another.
Logically we can make informed choices. I am reasonable sure the flying pink unicorn is not my creator.
November 27th, 2011, 5:35 pm
God has no image that justifies the evidence. That does not stop me treating one with more respect than another. Would you honestly enter into the same argument if it was described as a pink unicorn or if it was described with some authority and conviction?Dramhur wrote:Ok, for me God is just another name for the Big, Great, Pink Flying Unicorn. We know about God about as much as we know about the aforementioned Unicorn. If the Unicorn is only a unicorn because he chooses so but can at any given moment transform itself into anything else, how does it make it different from almighty God who can perform the same trick? Just assume the Great Pink Unicorn is also almighty (assuming the qualities of being pink and almighty are not somehow mutually exclusive - I really don't know much about these things). Or maybe you think God wouldn't stoop so low as to masquerade himself as a unicorn?
November 30th, 2011, 10:34 am
Eric I understand your faith in observations and the evidence that we are given, but what about the opposite to the wonders and the invisibility of your god? Why has your god given us impossible tasks and terrible illnesses? Is it necessary to be so elusive?
As an agnostic I can see the possibilities when looking at the wonders, the amazing good fortune we appear to experience but science will never admit or deny god and it will never secure you one ounce of certainty.
Is your faith built on facts or is your faith independent of knowledge? I can understand the wonder you experience but not the certainty. Sorry Alan but evidence like faith can be very deceptive . I believe in the power of nature and the eternal spirit that flows through all life but intelligence that we can describe or even imaging is not expressed in any evidence I have found.
As an agnostic I can see the possibilities when looking at the wonders, the amazing good fortune we appear to experience but science will never admit or deny god and it will never secure you one ounce of certainty.
Is your faith built on facts or is your faith independent of knowledge? I can understand the wonder you experience but not the certainty. Sorry Alan but evidence like faith can be very deceptive . I believe in the power of nature and the eternal spirit that flows through all life but intelligence that we can describe or even imaging is not expressed in any evidence I have found.
November 30th, 2011, 1:48 pm
Eric if you actually spent the time to read my post you might find that I was opposing Alan's reasoning. You might have confused kindness with agreement. I may not agree with Alan but he is friend and I think he deserves respect.
You may believe your views are logical and are beyond questioning but faith in science can equally be as dangerous when you interpret the conclusions from an atheist perspective. Take god creating everything from nothing. Is that not what science proposed with the BB? Is it not beyond reason to suspect something must have actually instigated this first event?
Can you not imagine intelligence beyond ours ? are we the ultimate intelligence in the universe? Should time and matter beyond manipulation? I am glad you believe that life is determined by the laws of nature. Eric I do not believe in god but I am not so arogant as to assume I am infallible with my views or opinions. I can argue from both perspectives with equal tenacity but I hope I respect my opponents long held beliefs. thanks xris.
You may believe your views are logical and are beyond questioning but faith in science can equally be as dangerous when you interpret the conclusions from an atheist perspective. Take god creating everything from nothing. Is that not what science proposed with the BB? Is it not beyond reason to suspect something must have actually instigated this first event?
Can you not imagine intelligence beyond ours ? are we the ultimate intelligence in the universe? Should time and matter beyond manipulation? I am glad you believe that life is determined by the laws of nature. Eric I do not believe in god but I am not so arogant as to assume I am infallible with my views or opinions. I can argue from both perspectives with equal tenacity but I hope I respect my opponents long held beliefs. thanks xris.
December 7th, 2011, 3:38 pm
Alan if I was the only atheist in the world should I change my views for logic or company.
December 14th, 2011, 12:47 pm
I have asked this question too many times. Is your god benevolent or malevolent and did he create us for his benefit or ours? It is always the description that fails not the concept.
December 14th, 2011, 5:26 pm
Fanman wrote:Hi Xris,
I think the answer is that God is love alive & aware. And just like love, he is malevolent and benevolent. He created both good and evil (Isaiah 45 : 7). I belive that we are God's creations, we were made in his image and likeness. Therefore if you're looking for answers as to God's nature, just look at human nature and you will find the answers that you are looking for. Everything that we are as people, he is also I say.
I believe that God created us to worship him, but he was kind enough to give us free will so that we can choose how we go about our business. The benefit to us is life itself.
Do you not understand that your description of god does not fit the evidence. Love never imposes, it submits. Malevolence is reserved for those we detest and despise. If god is like humanity then he is imperfect and has no image worthy of worship. If he gave us the ability to choose how could he convince us to worship him, if that is our purpose? Why should he want to be worshipped? Is he vain , insecure, lonely? Why is he invisible? Do you not understand your description fails the premise. It's not the concept it's the description.
December 16th, 2011, 4:40 pm
Fanman wrote:Hi Wooden shoe,
I was raised / nurtured with a belief in God. In my teenage years I forgot about him somewhat, but as I have matured, God and faith have an become important, reactivated part of my life. I have never been an atheist.
P.S. Your opinion is welcome to the discussion.
Hello Fanman. I have just read your response to my post and feel it necessary to ask you to fully reply. True love never is spiteful or malicious but you claim your gods love can show these characteristics. You believe god created us for his purpose and not for ours, do you not find that in itself just bit strange?
I like many on this forum have had the same beliefs as yours but when confronted with the logic of faith found very little to support it. I have had many spiritual experiences and many unexplained occurrences but they will never be capable of creating a god with such strange contradictory aspects to his description. You have adopted a god to secure your experiences not a god to explain your experiences.
December 17th, 2011, 6:22 am
Fanman wrote:Hi Xris,
I think that it depends on what you define as true love. Since we're talking about God, let us take the example of a father punishing his son in order to keep him on the right path. The son would percieve and experience his fathers actions as malicious and spiteful, but it is in fact his father's way (love) of trying to protect his son.
It is true that God created us for his purpose, pleasure and to worship him. And he gave us free will so that we may choose what we want to do and how we go about our lives. God wants to be worshiped and some people like me enjoy worshipping him. God is not a man, he is the supreme being who created the universe, surely by this status alone he deserves our worship; there is nothing strange about that in my opinion.
I have not adopted God to secure or explain my experiences. I believe in God, because I want to dwell with him heaven. Its a pity that you lost your faith or that your faith was corrupted by over application of scientific logic. I wonder Xris, in fact I question. What is it you now have faith in, and why?
I find it strange that he can create us imperfect enough to want to chastise us. Sorry Fanman, I hope I never inflict so much pain on my children as I see god inflicts on hic creation. I try to guide my children, my love for them would never force me to be as malevolent as god. Why do you think he can turn away from children suffering and say It is part of his master plan? We have suffered and waited for 2000 years to see salvation, how long do you think humanity should wait?
I realised that even the most humble of us would sacrifice our existance to save just one child from suffering, yet this god maintains his silence and continues to ignore the plight of billions of innocent children. Where is your logic Fanman? Why can you not see he is an illusion. My faith does not require a cruel and savage god, who ignores the suffering of his creation. My faith lies within me and through my experiences I believe there could be more than this existence but god has no part in this belief.
December 17th, 2011, 7:43 am
Fanman. So god did not create all those nasty little germs that kill our children? Who created them then? What is the purpose of free will if we are not privileged to understanding why god allows suffering? Can you not understand the illogical reasoning behind faith? Do these questions never give you any doubts? From an atheist perspective you appear to be making excuses rather than confronting issues that should be thought about.Fanman wrote:Hi Xris,
Fair enough, you are entitled to your beliefs. Although I would say, that not everyone is suffering. People are responsible for the world's problems, not God. We have free will. Jesus job is to separate the wheat from the chaff.
Simple illogical faith driven remarks like" Jesus purpose is to separate the wheat from the chaff" what in heavens does that mean? If christ existed,is that his purpose to weed out the sinners for gods examination? If god had made us perfect we would not need this examination. You need to examine the real reasons why you continue excuse your beliefs in such a scripted fashion.