Belinda wrote:I dont agree ,actually, Xris. I think that some religions are liberal enough for the disciples of them to discipline themselves. Other religions are more authoritarian and deal in rewards and punishments for the disciples' shortcomings and sins.
I am sure that personal 'spirituality' has a value to society. A privately spiritual person may be able to act wisely and kindly and be of great service to others parlty at least because of their spiritual beliefs, without once stepping inside any consecrated building and without performing any visible rituals.

I think the problem for religionists is that by and large they over -enthuse about sex and genders but have no notion how they are really dinosaurs with the metaphysical material they use. If religionists were able to inject reason into their faiths they would be amply able to stand alongside the secularists and atheists.

Wooden shoe wrote:Hi Xris.

In Canada the largest Protestant denomination is the United Church. It was formed in 1925 and was constituted by Methodists and Presbyterian groups. This denomination is extremely tolerant and is much more concerned about the Golden Rule then religious dogma. So in effect they were the first to welcome the gay community and women into leadership roles.
All of this has not been smooth sailing as conservatives within have rebelled at times, but the leadership has prevailed in liberalizing this denomination.

I am not in any way connected but if I wanted to go and attend a church service, this is the one I would pick.

Regards, John.

James S Saint wrote:

Xris wrote:It would need my experience with them for me to be convinced. I was a Baptist, a very moderate church but they still impose their beliefs onto secular society. Just simple councillors who happened to be Baptist tried to stop corner shops selling magazines. You also get the Methodists in holiday resorts like St Ives using their vote in council meetings, restricting commercial activities on Sundays.Sorry but there is no such thing as a moderate believer.

Baptist Churches in America are run by secularists (as are most others). They just don't usually know it.

Fanman wrote:Hi Xris,

I thought that the message of my post would be clear? I mean that Christianity taught by ethically and empathetic minded spiritual leaders, would be beneficial to society. I'm not saying that atheists are not morally conscious or morally guided people; I am saying that Christianity and the old testament of the bible can install a moral core within an individual. Whether or not Christians are more "moral" than non-Christians is certainly debatable. In my experience, the people i've met who have faith and a religious element to their character (not necessarily Christianity, but a spiritual belief) are more honest, humble and kind than those who are atheists, but that is just my experience.

Belinda wrote::D Gosh. Xris, if my nearest neighbours who dress like village Muslims knocked on my door with such a suggestion I would be pleased because Muslims in my experience keep themselves to themselves over much. I would try not to laugh because one is afraind of Muslims's sensitivities and impetuousness. If some Christian neighbours proposed that they pray for me I would feel safe to express my desire to giggle. It's not that I am against praying, I am not, it's just that when anybody presumes what they have no reason to presume it makes me giggle, as when my son instructed me how to change a duvet cover.

dparrott wrote:If religion is slavery then people are only enslaving themselves.

Kingkool wrote:

dparrott wrote:

Xris wrote:

dparrott wrote:If religion is slavery then people are only enslaving themselves.

So if a tyrant rules then we can only blame his victims. The message of jesus was a revolutionaries dream of peace mercy and freedom but like all common rebellions, the men who seek power over others made it holy and degraded it into a religion that controlled and manipulated men.

I agree with you Xris. In the United States you have the freedom to walk away from religion. That freedom does not exist for slaves.

No matter what people try to force you to do, or how much influence a religion has on you, no one but yourself can force you to believe.

Fanman wrote:I think that because atheist don't believe in God, it is obvious that they will not see any sense in religion. And even regard it negatively. But I think that religion can be benficial to society, in the sense that it can create a community of like-minded people, who are all striving towards the betterment of the community and themselves. I follow the doctrine of Christianity, but I am not a slave nor do I feel that I am under any type of constraints. I know many catholic people, and they do not ever express that they are under any type of slavery or constraints.

In all the systems of society i.e. - the police, the government, the health system, schools etc... There are corrupt individuals who bring the system into disrepute. However, this does not necessarily mean that the system itself is at fault. It is the same with religion - priests who abuse there position of authority should face punishment for there actions, but this does not mean that religion as a concept is 'bad' or enforces slavery. The concept of Christianity, is that it sets people free from sin; not that it enslaves them, what does it enslave people to? Furthermore, we have a free choice if we want to believe in God or not, and if we want to follow a religion or not.

dparrott wrote:

Xris wrote:Religion was and is the ability to control man through fear.It lays down laws and then like any controlling force it enforces those laws with a set of punishments. When it only has control of your moral behaviour it tells you of the consequences. Burn in hell, remain in limbo. If it has power over your social behaviour it will burn you for being a witch, a heretic, a homosexual, an adulterer. But do the faithful remember when the church had power over our body as well as our soul? O no but it then tells us how so much better they are than us. Secular justice and morals are progressive but look at where religion, note religion not christianity alone, controls the law and we still see slavery, casting out of devils from children, contraception banned and governments controlled by fundamentalist who impose their faith on others. I do not want religion to teach my children or my grandchildren. I do not like their ethics their bigoted views or their self righteous attitudes.

Xris you are always talking about whats right and wrong as are a pantheist I thought you would believe in no such thing.

dparrott wrote:

Xris wrote:

dparrott wrote:

Xris wrote:Religion was and is the ability to control man through fear.It lays down laws and then like any controlling force it enforces those laws with a set of punishments. When it only has control of your moral behaviour it tells you of the consequences. Burn in hell, remain in limbo. If it has power over your social behaviour it will burn you for being a witch, a heretic, a homosexual, an adulterer. But do the faithful remember when the church had power over our body as well as our soul? O no but it then tells us how so much better they are than us. Secular justice and morals are progressive but look at where religion, note religion not christianity alone, controls the law and we still see slavery, casting out of devils from children, contraception banned and governments controlled by fundamentalist who impose their faith on others. I do not want religion to teach my children or my grandchildren. I do not like their ethics their bigoted views or their self righteous attitudes.

Xris you are always talking about whats right and wrong as are a pantheist I thought you would believe in no such thing.

sorry you have lost me. I am always talking about what is right or wrong? So are pantheists. So you thought I would not believe. Sorry believe in what exactly?

Are you a pantheist?

Kingkool wrote:

Xris wrote:Religion was and is the ability to control man through fear.It lays down laws and then like any controlling force it enforces those laws with a set of punishments. When it only has control of your moral behaviour it tells you of the consequences. Burn in hell, remain in limbo. If it has power over your social behaviour it will burn you for being a witch, a heretic, a homosexual, an adulterer. But do the faithful remember when the church had power over our body as well as our soul? O no but it then tells us how so much better they are than us. Secular justice and morals are progressive but look at where religion, note religion not christianity alone, controls the law and we still see slavery, casting out of devils from children, contraception banned and governments controlled by fundamentalist who impose their faith on others. I do not want religion to teach my children or my grandchildren. I do not like their ethics their bigoted views or their self righteous attitudes.

The problem with this is that not all religions worship in the sane way. Buddhists try to avoid earthly possesions. Christians... there are too many sects to generalize. Pagans sacrifice animals, ect.. The teachings of the different churches are specific. I am not fond of religion, but you still can't generalize that much.