I have lived in a farm, where I have cows, horses, chickens, pigs, dogs and I can think of many examples where at one point or another they have shown degree of imagination in overcoming difficulties they have found themselves in.
They also shown to be aware of time, and space.
What I have never seen in an animal is to have the concept of life. To me humans are the only animal which has the concept of life.
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Return to: Do animals have imagination?
March 15th, 2012, 8:24 am
March 15th, 2012, 10:18 am
Bermudj wrote:What I have never seen in an animal is to have the concept of life. To me humans are the only animal which has the concept of life.
Avi Love wrote:Gorillas and chimpanzees both mourn the dead which is a clear indication of having a concept of life.
Being aware that a member of its species is dead, I also have seen this with horses and cats.
By the concept of life I was referring to the fact that we from quite an early age are aware that one day it will all end. So we start thinking of what we are going to do with our lives. So we start planning, questioning, what we want to use that life for? and worse, start comparing.
March 16th, 2012, 6:11 am
Avi Love wrote:Gorillas actually go through a mourning period as a family when they lose a child. The trainer at the zoo was telling me that they transfer the younger gorillas to other zoos to mate with other families so as to propagate the zoo populations. The last time one of the daughters got transferred, the entire family sulked around for a few months. They were shown pictures and video of the daughter in the new habitat, but the trainer said she's unsure if they understand that.
This happens with bulls. When they are separated they spend weeks searching for each other and it is a constant bellowing. Whether the ones left behind were aware that the others had been taken to slaughter, it is impossible to tell.
Avi Love wrote:To mourn a life over an extended period of time indicates a clear concept of a life as a complete whole. In order to have a mourning period (as opposed to just sniffing a corpse and recognizing death), the animal must be able to comprehend that the other animal was born, lived, and is now dead and not coming back.
This does not tell us how they handle the concept of a life on an individual level in their day to day experience, but I think it does tell us that they have a concept of it.
I agree on a very basic understanding. The fact that they are aware that this happens to others of their same species in no way does it make them think that one day it will happen to them.
Avi Love wrote:Like with everything else, we've just taken it to new heights (self-help books, retirement funds, etc).
To me it causes us a great deal of difficulties.
March 16th, 2012, 2:18 pm
Avi Love wrote:Unfortunately there is no way I can think of to confirm or deny this. I would still argue that the mourning period indicates something.
I agree
Avi Love wrote:You mentioned bulls searching for each other, but gorillas don't.
No as I mentioned I spent 8 years working in a farm with these domesticated animals. I have never worked with gorillas.
Avi Love wrote:They understand that the other gorilla died. It's gone, and it's not coming back. They go through an actual mourning period of the death of the family member not just a traumatic searching loss that you're describing in the bull. To me, this makes it likely that they do have a concept of death. I don't think your example indicates that the bull does. It simply recognizes the familiar animal is not there. For an animal to have an actual concept of death, I would argue that they may be aware that they will die as well. In humans, based exclusively on our behavior (no language), I don't know if there's anything that clearly indicates we know we're going to die either. Again, I think the most indicative human behavior of our knowledge of death is the ritualized mourning of the dead. That is a behavior we seem to see somewhat replicated in gorillas and elephants.
One of my grandmothers died when I was about 4-5. I have faint memories of people gathering round, but that did not make me aware that one day it would happen to me.
March 17th, 2012, 2:33 am
Avi Love wrote:Did you actually have an understanding that she had died or did people just seem sad that she wasn't there?
No I had no understanding she had died.
I think it's likely that a very young gorilla might also not understand the death as well as the adults do. The same is probably true of any animal.
Avi Love wrote:So the real question is what causes an animal (including humans) to be aware of their own mortality, and what behaviors demonstrate that awareness? I don't have an answer to the first question, but I think that conducting a ritual and a prolonged mourning period are likely candidates for the second.
It seems a bit of inductive process would answer the first question
March 18th, 2012, 3:29 pm
Peter Kinnon wrote:Forget the vague and silly word "intelligence".
Most words are vague and silly. Some argue that intelligence means to know yourself.
March 24th, 2012, 9:46 am
Is this imagination, or intelligence?
I and a friend want to separate the horse and the mare. Finally we managed to temporarily do this and we are in the way of them.
barn and house
The mare is here. we are here. the horse is here.
fence----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
He tries to get back to her slightly going round us to either side, but we move across and block his way.
He stops "thinks?" The light bulb switches on.
Then shoots off all the way running behind the house and the barn and getting behind us to where the mare is.
I and a friend want to separate the horse and the mare. Finally we managed to temporarily do this and we are in the way of them.
barn and house
The mare is here. we are here. the horse is here.
fence----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
He tries to get back to her slightly going round us to either side, but we move across and block his way.
He stops "thinks?" The light bulb switches on.
Then shoots off all the way running behind the house and the barn and getting behind us to where the mare is.
March 25th, 2012, 2:42 am
dparrott wrote:Can animals create things in their mind that they have never encountered?
Humans cannot do this either.
March 25th, 2012, 5:10 am
Peter Kinnon wrote:On the other hand we can quite safely say that the elements of all these have been encountered before
This is key.
We have to observe life for that imagination to work.
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