Alien Logic or is logic universal?

Can you conceive of beings whose thinking processes and logic are different than human? We already have man-made computers that think {organize and calculate data} differently than the humans who created them do.

But the main question I am asking here is it conceivable to you that beings might exist that have a different logic? Or do you think that logic, is logic, is logic and could not exist unless it appeared logical by human standards? Can you believe that there is a logic other than the logic you accept as constant for human thought?

H M wrote:

Or do you think that logic, is logic, is logic and could not exist unless it appeared logical by human standards?

Even in Kant's critical philosophy, where "things" can be taken to be supersensibly fundamental -- rather than their organization into a cosmos, via the forms of perception and understanding that yield conscious experience -- any space aliens would still be found residing in the natural order or world of outer relations presented by the human cognitive system; and thereby regulated by its rules or laws. Thus their "logic", roundaboutly derived from the latter, should still be at least in the same ball park since there would be a limit to how far they could differ from us in thought and yet survive. When venturing into Kant's practical philosophy, however, where the noumenal counterparts to phenomenal bodies may be entertained without running into the "unknowable" barrier, it might be that the aliens as they are in themselves would have dissimilar faculties that yield a domain radically unlike the natural order. But our encounters and interactions with the aliens would still be represented as being in "our world", with their noumenal way of being converted into behaviors/beliefs/thinking that are compatible with that brand of phenomenal world.

Yes what you are saying is probably true according to your line thought and its relationship to Kant. But I am still wondering about the necessity of this. For example, and to give one reason why my fascination with the alien phenomenon, is the work done by Jacques Vallee, computer scientist and ufologist, who reported that in some places where alien phenomenon has occurred there where otherwise credible witnesses who saw it and others who did not. This could be attributed to perception and/or imagination. And then of course if we postulate the possibility that the phenomenon is real we could theorize that limitations of some peoples logic will not allow them to see what their mind tells them is illogical. I am now wondering if the logic of these theoretical aliens is in itself of such a nature so as to be indecipherable to the perceptions of some and yet both decipherable and logical to others. Can logic allow for the existence of more than one reality? And if there is more than one reality might there not be a different logic in the other reality?

If alien beings exist might perceiving and/or communicating with them not be a matter space telescopes and antenna but rather an understanding of alien logic?

wanabe wrote:UniversalAlien,

Can you conceive of beings whose thinking processes and logic are different than human?

Yes!

is it conceivable to you that beings might exist that have a different logic?

Absolutely.

Can you believe that there is a logic other than the logic you accept as constant for human thought?

Absolutely!

The real question to be asking though, is: different how? Alien logic could be more accurate or less accurate than human logic. It would no doubt be different, as it would be in a different language format(non verbal), not of this planet. This language could be more precise or less, than our human languages.

And then what it could be is the aliens are beyond logic. We need logic. We have a constant need to prove we are logical. Human thought requires an endless process of affirmation of human thought patterns as humans often do not always think logically and have to be shown this to remain sane and logical. But what if our theoretical aliens do not need this? In the same way that Nietzsche, who wrote "Beyond Good and Evil", implied that a more advanced human would not need to continue to affirm good and evil attributes to his thoughts, possibly our advanced aliens would never have to question the logic of their thoughts or actions. To the advanced alien consciousness logic would never be a question because, to put it in logical human terms, they could never act or think illogically.

You could see how it would be hard to communicate with such beings. The questioning, and what would appear to them to be erratic human mind would be hard to communicate with as that human mind would be processing thought and data with what would appear to them to be 'static' and confusion - questions such as is it true, false, or logical would never occur to them - no need to separate noumena from phenomena, they would be the same.

Such beings, to say the least, would be impossible to argue with or debate and one could see why Stephen Hawking. the world renowned British theoretical physicist, cosmologist, and author, has expressed the view that if they exist we should avoid contact.

Fhbradley wrote:

HexHammer wrote:Most of western philosophically logic is outdated, and needs updated to take account for mental defects and such found in psychology.

Hopefully ailiens isn't emotionally based thus can see things objectivily, and free of compulsivness.

I'm hoping you're referring to Aristotelean logic. Logic was revolutionized in the late 19th and earlier 20th century by philosophers such as Frege, Russell, Wittgenstein (his early stuff),etc. And it has continued with advances in modal logic and so on. Also, what are you exactly implying when you refer to mental defects?

Anyways, to comment on the first point, there are many logics. The logic you construct and the types of proofs you can make with it are dependent on the axioms and rules of inference you give the system. In this sense, logic is not universal. I think it was Carnap that said everyone is free to make their own logic.

Secondly, people often think very differently from the logic we construct. For instance, most think the following is valid:

(1) If p, then q

(2) ~p

(C) ~q

So I think it's very improbable that logic is '"just the way we think".

A long time ago in a philosophy course I took in college I remember the professor talking about logic, and I remember that he said 'paranoia' is very logical. Another words to the paranoid mind believing someone or something he or she imagines is 'out to get him' he will construct the data he receives in such a way so as to re-enforce the paranoid delusion.

I mention this because when I ask "Alien Logic or is logic universal?", I want it known that I am not asking if logical delusion is possible but rather if there is another different yet still somehow logical {even if not known to us} way to calculate and possibly even to manipulate what exists in this or any other known or unknown universe. And can this question even be contemplated while dealing in our realm of existence? Or can you imagine another realm of existence {or universe} where not only is the science different than ours but even the logic upon which this science is based is different?

wanabe wrote:...is [there] another different yet still somehow logical {even if not known to us} way to calculate and possibly even to manipulate what exists in this or any other known or unknown universe. And can this question even be contemplated while dealing in our realm of existence? Or can you imagine another realm of existence {or universe} where not only is the science different than ours but even the logic upon which this science is based is different?

It would involve more specific well defined language, perhaps closer to math. This would be qualitative calculus in essence. A beautiful concept I dream of.

Or maybe something else? It suddenly occurred to me {I'm sure it must have occurred to others} that we are very limited because we have only five senses {and possibly a sixth?}. What if the potential exists for many more senses and as we compare our advanced sensory apparatus to say 'bugs' - Are there beings in the universe with twenty or more senses that see us as 'bugs' by comparison. How limited we are by being humanoid we can only imagine because if advanced 'alien life and intelligence' exists they haven't yet introduced themselves to our perception. Now if you want to grant that such beings might exist and say they have twenty basic senses compared to our five, how different would their perspective be? And again the same question, would their logic also be different?

Martian Visitor wrote:

UniversalAlien wrote:Alien Logic or is logic universal?

Can you conceive of beings whose thinking processes and logic are different than human?

Thinking processes yes, logic no. Logic is not a property of humans or other beings, it's a property of the universe.

Logic a property of the universe? How do you know this? How can you say logic is a property of the universe without subjecting the universe to human logic and how do you suppose to prove humans are logical? You assume humans are logical - and to each other there may seem to be what you call logic, but unless you can view this so-called logic external to human existence and experience you can not prove its independent validity or truth. It is conceivable to me that to a more advanced and logical race of beings most of human history is illogical and a good part of human behavior is illogical. And illogical beings such as humans would not know if the universe they live in is in fact logical because they may not know what logic is.

But I will agree in at least the possibility that independently of humans the universe may in fact be logical - porblem is how are you going to prove this?

Spectrum, basically I agree with what you are saying. Of course there are the elements of should be, could be, and probably is in that viewpoint of logic and logical purpose. Admittedly and for now we may have to accept those limitations. I believe however that to test any hypothesis one should argue an antithesis to it. And in any proposition to test the validity of that proposition we should try to disprove it. If we can not disprove it there is a greater chance that the original proposition is true and valid in a universal sense.

Finally though we are confronted by limits of proof. An old occult saying of a group called 'The Great White Brotherhood of the Himalayas' was "Anything is possible, buy nothing is certain." Is that logical? Only if you read into it and attempt to comprehend the hidden meaning implied - Probably goes in the Alien Logic category.

Martian Visitor wrote:

UniversalAlien wrote:
Logic a property of the universe? How do you know this? How can you say logic is a property of the universe without subjecting the universe to human logic and how do you suppose to prove humans are logical?

How do you propose to prove anything at all?

You assume humans are logical -

No I don't, I said that logic is a property of the universe, not a property of humans.

But I will agree in at least the possibility that independently of humans the universe may in fact be logical - problem is how are you going to prove this?

It doesn't trouble me. Nothing can be proved.

You make some good points:

Such as: " How do you propose to prove anything at all? "
We would have to get into a definition of what is a proof? At least one book could be written on that subject alone
- and there are probably already one or more books on the subject. But what ever is written on the subject we
would still have to make certain assumptions such as where is the proof being used - what world, what time,
what frame of reference and in what reality - And proving reality exists is impossible as it is a relative concept.

And since an independent reality can not be proven it might be as you say - nothing can be proven. Therefore
we can only prove things if we accept a set of definitions and the proof meets the requirements of proof as so
set by the accepted definitions. This too you see would go for attempting to prove a universal reality, an
extremely difficult task when you consider that of the 10 billion or so people now living on say the planet
earth not one exists in exactly the same reality as no two sentient beings can exist in exactly the
same place at the exact same time. Therefore the only thing that gives us any sense of a universal reality is a
bunch of symbols {words and numbers} that humans agree are accurate representations of what is
- But who really knows what actually is and how to prove it!

And to get back to your point that I was debating you said: "Logic a property of the universe"
I'll again say maybe - but until that elusive thing called a proof is shown in that elusive world
of a presumed reality, it remains to be seen.