Do animals have a degree of self-awareness? (Conscience?)

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Atreyu
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Re: Do animals have a degree of self-awareness? (Conscience?

Post by Atreyu »

Logic_ill wrote: Interesting observations, Atreyu. When you mentioned that "self-awareness has not grown over time", I thought of how that must have differed according to the diverse contexts/lifestyles humans had. In other words, the stimuli the different generations of humans have been exposed to must have influenced our egos/self-image. The first few were hunter gatherers; now we have running water, beds, radios, and TVs. In the former, many humans may not even had mirrors or have been able to see their reflections on water to pass the mirror test. But which versions are more accurate of ourselves? I think the many different lifestyles and how we have adapted to them, can give us a clue.
Yes, I think you get the gist of my point. Man's self-image/conception of himself has changed over time, and this has nothing whatever to do with actual self-awareness or self-knowledge. What it has to do with is the way he "sees" himself and others, and the way others "see" themselves and him. And Man's self-image and self-importance has grown immensely since the Stone Age. But this is not because of any superior intellect on his part, nor any growth of it, but rather because the direction and focus of his intellect has become much more fixated on himself, rather than on the world around him; i.e. his awareness has become reflected on itself, so that now Man sees everything through the lens of himself, through the prism of his self-importance. And this has taken him further from a true understanding and knowledge of his real objective self, which, ironically, men of the Stone Age were closer to...
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Re: Do animals have a degree of self-awareness? (Conscience?

Post by Logic_ill »

Atreyu wrote:
Logic_ill wrote: Interesting observations, Atreyu. When you mentioned that "self-awareness has not grown over time", I thought of how that must have differed according to the diverse contexts/lifestyles humans had. In other words, the stimuli the different generations of humans have been exposed to must have influenced our egos/self-image. The first few were hunter gatherers; now we have running water, beds, radios, and TVs. In the former, many humans may not even had mirrors or have been able to see their reflections on water to pass the mirror test. But which versions are more accurate of ourselves? I think the many different lifestyles and how we have adapted to them, can give us a clue.
Yes, I think you get the gist of my point. Man's self-image/conception of himself has changed over time, and this has nothing whatever to do with actual self-awareness or self-knowledge. What it has to do with is the way he "sees" himself and others, and the way others "see" themselves and him. And Man's self-image and self-importance has grown immensely since the Stone Age. But this is not because of any superior intellect on his part, nor any growth of it, but rather because the direction and focus of his intellect has become much more fixated on himself, rather than on the world around him; i.e. his awareness has become reflected on itself, so that now Man sees everything through the lens of himself, through the prism of his self-importance. And this has taken him further from a true understanding and knowledge of his real objective self, which, ironically, men of the Stone Age were closer to...
I understand your ideas, but contrary to you I think man's concept of self has much to do with self-awareness. Perhaps not as much in the first stages of life, but definitely in later stages. However, a child born and raised smack in the jungle, while humans were hunter gatherers would have most likely developed a fairly different self-awareness than one born in today´s urban areas. For example, the former were even exposed to different stimuli in the womb. The jungle fetuses may have had to deal with or be subjected to the adrenaline rushes of their moms, who were fleeing from a predator or encountered a venomous snake. The latter, may have heard baby Mozart and had to "deal"with the pregnant mom´s cravings for junk food. In other words, their environments triggered the release of different chemical substances that may have had an impact on the child´s overall temperament and mood. The last two, which have much to do with self-awareness and knowledge.

Children of the stone age may not have been made to pay attention to their emotions as modern kids are made to: happy, sad, afraid, etc. Parents may not have even cared to know how their children felt. That may have impacted those children as well.

Human beings are social animals. Whatever the dynamics of the world and the people they were born into, may be, as well any exposure to the accumulated knowledge from the past, is going to impact an individual´s self-awareness. Maybe my view of self-awareness encompasses a wider range than we ordinarily assign to it.
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Re: Do animals have a degree of self-awareness? (Conscience?

Post by Alan Jones »

I understand that the other animals that have passed the mirror test are social. Awareness of self develops as we learn to attend to our environments, especially our social environments. Socialization is required for normal human brain development. Is this a type of opponent processing?
"Beliefs are what divide people. Doubt unites them." - Peter Ustinov "Every great advance in natural knowledge has involved the absolute rejection of authority." - Thomas Huxley
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Re: Do animals have a degree of self-awareness? (Conscience?

Post by Atreyu »

Logic_ill wrote:I understand your ideas, but contrary to you I think man's concept of self has much to do with self-awareness.
If you think that, you do not understand. Man's conception of himself is what he thinks about himself, and this is directly opposed to actual being aware of the self (self-awareness). A man cannot see himself while at the same time thinking about himself. What man's self-conception has to do with his self-awareness is that the former obliterates the latter. Man's thinking about himself has come at the expense of him actually being aware of (knowing) himself.
Logic_ill wrote: Human beings are social animals. Whatever the dynamics of the world and the people they were born into, may be, as well any exposure to the accumulated knowledge from the past, is going to impact an individual´s self-awareness. Maybe my view of self-awareness encompasses a wider range than we ordinarily assign to it.
No, your view of self-awareness is a common, yet false, one. You are making the common mistake of confusing what we think about ourselves with actually being aware of ourselves. And in relation to this thread it is interesting to note that only humans do this (think about themselves)....
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Re: Do animals have a degree of self-awareness? (Conscience?

Post by Logic_ill »

When I say "man's conception of self", I am referring to the human being's overall conception or knowledge of self and their behaviour. If a child grew up in a time in which human beings thought different things about themselves as a consequence of their way or life and knowledge, then that would have impacted the child's self-awareness. Maybe not as a fetus or at birth because as far as we know the infants are not self-aware, but later on these early experiences might influence their sense of self. For example, if a pregnant mother smoked excessively, the child might be born asthmatic. The fetus or infant would not know why they have breathing problems, but when they realize that in comparison to others they do not breathe well, it will impact their sense of self. Furthermore, if his social group finds out that it was because the mother smoked excessively, it will further influence him/her. It might influence his/her relationship with mom, if he/she knew that smoking excessively may have caused the child asthma.

Yes, we are separate individuals, but in no way shape or form are we not influenced by the others. Whatever the dynamics between us, will definitely impact that sense of self. We are generally conceived by sexual copulation, and mother and father's habits might impact us, even before we were conceived. Many of us now know this, but we didn't always know. That knowledge has influenced our sense of self. We have been made aware of these findings.

There may also be wrong findings that will influence our sense of self, or self awareness. For example, were human beings created by the Abrahamic God, or did we evolve from primitive life forms?

There may be no self awareness outside of a human social context, but I'm not sure. For example, if I were a test tube baby born on another planet raised by advanced aliens and I'm the only human, I might be able to develop a sense of self-awareness. However, I suspect it would be radically different to that of humans born on Earth.
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Re: Do animals have a degree of self-awareness? (Conscience?

Post by LuckyR »

For the truly honest, it is difficult to describe or quantify what seperates humans from animals. Old definitions like language and toolmaking have fallen by the wayside. Newer ones like selfawareness and emotionalism have similar been debunked.

No one disagrees that the quantity of the human intellect is different than that of animals, but is there a qualitative difference?
"As usual... it depends."
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Re: Do animals have a degree of self-awareness? (Conscience?

Post by Atreyu »

Logic_ill wrote:When I say "man's conception of self", I am referring to the human being's overall conception or knowledge of self and their behaviour. If a child grew up in a time in which human beings thought different things about themselves as a consequence of their way or life and knowledge, then that would have impacted the child's self-awareness. Maybe not as a fetus or at birth because as far as we know the infants are not self-aware, but later on these early experiences might influence their sense of self. For example, if a pregnant mother smoked excessively, the child might be born asthmatic. The fetus or infant would not know why they have breathing problems, but when they realize that in comparison to others they do not breathe well, it will impact their sense of self. Furthermore, if his social group finds out that it was because the mother smoked excessively, it will further influence him/her. It might influence his/her relationship with mom, if he/she knew that smoking excessively may have caused the child asthma.
Yes, I agree with you. My point was just in rebuttal to your insinuation that our modern education makes us more self-aware than men of antiquity. At best, our education can merely show us how to attain it....
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Re: Do animals have a degree of self-awareness? (Conscience?

Post by Blauw bloed »

LuckyR wrote:For the truly honest, it is difficult to describe or quantify what seperates humans from animals. Old definitions like language and toolmaking have fallen by the wayside. Newer ones like selfawareness and emotionalism have similar been debunked.

No one disagrees that the quantity of the human intellect is different than that of animals, but is there a qualitative difference?

Its a question of education as all knowledge is acquired. If we consider an animal as a human with a low IQ, we could still educate them. Tell them, show them, how humans treat animals, even eat tem, and they will act. Cattle might begin a stampede and trample the farmer and his wife to death.

-- Updated July 30th, 2015, 1:22 pm to add the following --
LuckyR wrote:For the truly honest, it is difficult to describe or quantify what seperates humans from animals. Old definitions like language and toolmaking have fallen by the wayside. Newer ones like selfawareness and emotionalism have similar been debunked.

No one disagrees that the quantity of the human intellect is different than that of animals, but is there a qualitative difference?
I like this. Somehow the human animal needs more things to be able to exist. While others have fur or strenght, we have a very large brain, so we can store more information. But humans are therefore highly trainable. As we have no inborn moral compass, we can only act on what was thaught to us. A child raised by wolves will be a sort of wolf, and needs to be reeducated to be anything human like. I believe citizens of Europe till way into the 20th century would walk barefoot, if they were poor, because they did not know differently, and the body would adapt to the cold earth in winter. Just like animals go barefoot and sleep without duvets etc.
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Re: Do animals have a degree of self-awareness? (Conscience?

Post by NRG »

StingRay wrote:I believe that no animal or creature have been advanced enough to achieve a state of awareness or conscience besides for humans.

One of the many reasons I believe this is because no one can remember what happened to us before 2-5 years old. This is because our brains and memory are not nearly developed enough to remember things happening around us.

This relates to animals because even the smartest of animals (monkeys, dolphins, pigs, etc.) in their prime of knowledge and understanding are still not as advanced in development as a toddler.

I believe if you cannot remember something there is no difference to you about what happened and therefore may as well not have happened to you, besides for physical marks that may remain.

I would like to note I love animals, and would never harm one because they are still very cute and cuddly :D . But I do not believe they are self-aware, and anything they do is repetition and instinct.

Based on my interpretation of this post, I think you are on to something. It seems to me that the fundamental misunderstanding throughout this discussion is the definition of consciousness. Granted, it is a very difficult thing to define, but I understand consciousness as the ability to "reflect" on experience. All animals experience, even basic matter "experiences" the states and events it endures, but the ability to reflect on experience, to stop, turn around and ask, wait what exactly just happened? That, to me, seems to be "consciousness". It has also been pointed out that animals can perform complex tasks and react to complex situations, but this would not be consciousness in my view. There is no shortage of humans who are highly intelligent but have a relatively low state of consciousness.

So, I wish to grant merit to your observations. I believe I understand the point you are making.
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