The most difficult question...why should one live?

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The most difficult question...why should one live?

Post by Grotto19 »

I was posed with a difficult query, perhaps the first for which I had no answer nor an inkling or direction to head in. I was speaking to him about his depression, and it turned out not to be depression exactly it was more of an existential angst. You see this person had no idea what to do with his life.

He asked what should I do? To which I asked what do you want to do? What would you like to achieve? What matters to you? To which he said I don’t know. I asked “what matters to you”. He said “I like my dog but he will be gone in a few years.” I said “what about your family and your kids?” He said “they are almost all gone, my funeral won’t have many at it”.

At that moment his problem became my own problem as I too realized I am living for nothing. I too have no kids nor much family. And I too don’t even know why I go to work each day. I tell myself there is a reason, yet I leave that reason ambiguous as I in truth don’t have one. If not for procreation what purpose do any of us have? I could not answer his question, I had nothing.

I reached for things like experiences or some form of hedonism, but honestly as we age those arguments lose their weight. For the first time in a long time I was rendered without an argument. I couldn’t think of a reason he should do anything nor one for myself.

So my query is what is the point of life for the non-breeder? When that non breeder reaches an age where hedonism becomes a non-issue what is his or her reason to press on. Most people side against self-extinction, but my question is on what grounds? For I reached and could not think of a compelling answer. I would love to hear your thoughts. A have had these considerations before but trying to help another really made them acute for me as well. I will continue to go to work and live but I cannot say why. My only justification is a weak because not doing so seems wrong. And that’s a very weak argument.
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Re: The most difficult question...why should one live?

Post by Burning ghost »

I would ask HOW to live not WHY.
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Re: The most difficult question...why should one live?

Post by Spectrum »

All humans evolved with the following modular neural programs [relevant for the OP] which are somewhat interdependent;
  • 1. The neural program to survive at all costs & sub-programs
    2. The neural program to give up life & sub-programs
    3. The reason faculty
    4. The pleasure circuit
    5. The pain circuit
In the normal situation 90% of people,
The neural program to survive at all costs & sub-programs
-the neural program to survive at all costs is very active especially from early life to the height of one's productive years. Actions that align with this purpose is rewarded with pleasure while actions that goes against is triggered with pain to divert one to get back to the survival at all costs drive.

The neural program to give up life & sub-programs
-after one productive life cycle is over, the neural program in acceptance of giving up life set in to prepare one for the inevitable mortality. Those actions that generate great pleasure during one's productive life begin to wane as one ages, e.g. sex, various youthful activities, etc.

The above is the normal situation with 90% majority of the people. At times there may be temporary variations [sadness, highs, etc.] depending on the circumstances.

However, there is the inevitable Bell Curve distribution where there is a 10% [??] percentile who are out of the norm.
Thus there could be 10% of people who cannot give up life and will strive to survive at all costs right up to the end.
On the other hand there would be 10% of people [even during the young to productive years] who are triggered neurally to give up life or are indifferent to living depending on the degrees. These people would suffer a range of mild to severe depression. Generally as noted those who suffer from severe depression will want to go [driven by the brain connectivity and chemicals] and no amount of talk can stop them except for drugs and some will even to take the necessary drugs.

Therefore for animals, they will just go along with whatever to the state of their neural set up and chemicals. This is why we note there are some animals who will attempt to survive at all costs while some will give up life easily.

However with humans, there is a difference because we have the faculty of reason to override the above instincts and basic drives.
Thus a person who is unfortunate to be beset with a neural set-up that is not normal where their 'giving up of life' circuit is active, one has use one's reason to rationalize against it.

The logic and rationale is based on empirical evidence, i.e. it is observed that the majority humans during their productive and near-post periods strive to survive at all costs and do not give up life easily.
Therefore in principle all humans are duty bound to survive at all costs.
With that the depressed person should strive to the norm and not to give up one's life with relevant self-development programs or drugs.
There could a chance this rational approach [on a continual and constant basis] could also rewire the circuit to the norm and suppress that drive to give up life prematuredly.

Obviously if the person has other reasons, e.g. has dependents, children etc. then those would be added reasons to rely upon. Thus the more reasons in addition to the above general one would be better.

Thus our faculty reason is one good avenue to counter giving up life early than normal and natural.
Obviously it would be a mental battle which one must fight.
However I acknowledge the degree of severity of depression will effect the outcome based on the effort of reasons and drugs to make correction.
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Re: The most difficult question...why should one live?

Post by Eduk »

High welfare (happiness) and hedonism are two different things. You can have a hedonistic life that could (likely will) lead to profound unhappiness.

Taken purely on the gene level then non-breeders still have a great deal to contribute to survival of genes. From fostering to just generally being a moral person. No one is an island so you don't get to imagine that you have zero influence. This is as much an emotional argument as an intellectual argument. In general I believe that we want to care, even if we find that we don't.

The only sure fire way to care is to try. Try hard. The specifics of what you do matter but they aren't the key thing, the key thing is effort. If you are unhappy and unmotivated you are caught in a vicious cycle. If everything you do brings you greater apathy and unhappiness then stop doing those things. Do different things. Try hard, work hard. There are often no simple solutions to life. For example you might read parenting books which have tons of glib advice and the correct ways of doing things but the vast majority of it is rubbish, the one and only key to good parenting is effort. Of course technique does matter but a poor technique worked at hard will beat a great technique with no effort behind it, of course in an ideal world you do both, but again effort will lead you down the path of finding that good technique.

As to a purpose. We are of course just patterns of particles, self aware (make of that what you will), drifting through a universe too large to imagine. There is no known purpose to any of it. Of course that does not mean there is no purpose, so it is not safe at all to assume there is no purpose. It's just that the purpose (if there is one) is completely unknown. At the end of the day, and this is a bit glib, life is what you make of it. If you want to be apathetic then go ahead make the world a slightly worse place for everyone else (I will judge you) and a much worse place for you (I will empathise with you) and anyone close to you. If you are apathetic and don't want to be then work hard not to be, read Yes Man and start doing random stuff until something sticks. Do whatever, it doesn't really matter.
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Re: The most difficult question...why should one live?

Post by Belindi »

I like the changing seasons and the uncertain weather both of which are challenging and happen without any input from me.
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Re: The most difficult question...why should one live?

Post by Grotto19 »

Eduk wrote:High welfare (happiness) and hedonism are two different things. You can have a hedonistic life that could (likely will) lead to profound unhappiness.

Taken purely on the gene level then non-breeders still have a great deal to contribute to survival of genes. From fostering to just generally being a moral person. No one is an island so you don't get to imagine that you have zero influence. This is as much an emotional argument as an intellectual argument. In general I believe that we want to care, even if we find that we don't.

The only sure fire way to care is to try. Try hard. The specifics of what you do matter but they aren't the key thing, the key thing is effort. If you are unhappy and unmotivated you are caught in a vicious cycle. If everything you do brings you greater apathy and unhappiness then stop doing those things. Do different things. Try hard, work hard. There are often no simple solutions to life. For example you might read parenting books which have tons of glib advice and the correct ways of doing things but the vast majority of it is rubbish, the one and only key to good parenting is effort. Of course technique does matter but a poor technique worked at hard will beat a great technique with no effort behind it, of course in an ideal world you do both, but again effort will lead you down the path of finding that good technique.

As to a purpose. We are of course just patterns of particles, self aware (make of that what you will), drifting through a universe too large to imagine. There is no known purpose to any of it. Of course that does not mean there is no purpose, so it is not safe at all to assume there is no purpose. It's just that the purpose (if there is one) is completely unknown. At the end of the day, and this is a bit glib, life is what you make of it. If you want to be apathetic then go ahead make the world a slightly worse place for everyone else (I will judge you) and a much worse place for you (I will empathise with you) and anyone close to you. If you are apathetic and don't want to be then work hard not to be, read Yes Man and start doing random stuff until something sticks. Do whatever, it doesn't really matter.
Some things for me to ponder for sure. But I am curious about the hostility in the final paragraph. It seems as if you’re implying moral judgement regarding a person’s life as being obligated to get out there and contribute. To which I can say honestly does not address the matter. If an individual feels their life has no meaning it follows that no one’s does. Thus they would not be duty bound to contribute to society if the society itself is also without a point.

I would also point out at least from my own perspective (I cannot speak to my friends perspective on this part) some contributors are harmful and it would be better if they had not contributed at all. As an extreme example I will use radical Islamists. I think most would agree if society does matter that their contribution to it would be better left unmade. In other words society would be improved if ISIS developed a severe case of what even matters who cares. The issue in their case is not that they don’t care, it is an abundance of it driving them.

I happen to agree that there is a zeitgeist type reason for people to be here, and it provides a meaning. That we are more than evolved biochemical machines which became self-aware. Yet without tying that to some form of spiritual belief I don’t see how I can make that case. If things have no inherent meaning set by a higher domain then nothing matters. If there is some form of purpose but we have no clue what it is than anything could be wrong. Breeding seems to be what nature indicates we are supposed to do. So what then for the non-breeder?

However your commentary regarding simply try different things I think has validity. If you’re not finding the meaning of life now then change what you’re doing and perhaps you will find it there? This advice I may be able to sell as the individual I am counseling and myself have no suicidal ideations, no self-termination intent. He just has and I am starting to develop a lack of purpose, which is not the same as wishing to die. But it is difficult to find motivation to do more than avoid pain when nothing seems to matter.
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Re: The most difficult question...why should one live?

Post by Belindi »

Clinically depressed persons suffer from lack of feeling tone which is normally attached to knowledge and experience. Clinical depression is neurotic, not psychotic, as clinically depressed people aren't deluded, and are only too aware of their lack.
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Re: The most difficult question...why should one live?

Post by Eduk »

Apologies Grotto, no attempt for hostility on my part. Mild disappointment would be a better description than hostility, I was trying to say I disapprove of self harm while at the same time feeling empathy for it, I'd rather help than not help. Genuinely finding that life lacks meaning is a real catch22 as it feeds into itself. But realising that life lacks meaning implies a recognition that it shouldn't (or doesn't). Ignoring objective meaning (which may or may exist - even if it does exist it may not be the meaning we would hope for) there is certainly subjective meaning. There is nothing wrong with subjective meaning, you are subjective. You could argue ok but I subjectively say there is no meaning but I would say you are fooling yourself into leading a lower welfare life than is necessary.
Purely from a selfish perspective I hope that people lead high welfare lives. I also think this is better for them too, so it's a win win. People living low welfare lives may do so for a variety of complex reasons, some reasonable some not (most a mixture). There is no need for spiritual belief in order to want to live a high welfare life. And no need for spiritual belief to find some people unreasonable.
But really the key point I was trying to make is that if you feel unhappy then you should try to not to. The specifics of what you do matter less than the conscious genuine (note it must be genuine) act of trying. There are no tricks to life, it requires effort.
The example of ISIS is not an example of people making an effort. It is an example of lack of effort. An example of simplification, an example of easy answers, an example of not thinking. An example of inventing meaning which is not real. Again the motivation is complex, individual and not all unreasonable. Life is very very difficult :)
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Re: The most difficult question...why should one live?

Post by Grotto19 »

Eduk wrote: I hope that people lead high welfare lives. I also think this is better for them too, so it's a win win. People living low welfare lives may do so for a variety of complex reasons, some reasonable some not (most a mixture).
But really the key point I was trying to make is that if you feel unhappy then you should try to not to. The specifics of what you do matter less than the conscious genuine (note it must be genuine) act of trying. There are no tricks to life, it requires effort.
I don’t know what defines a high welfare life. Perhaps that is the crux of the matter. I know many have a subjective definition of that, and once upon a time I did as well. Family is important, acceptance of friends and colleagues is important, patriotism is important etc. The trouble is just as at one time getting to the next stage in a video game mattered, over time it’s meaninglessness started to sink in, and over more time I simply stopped playing.

The issue is when things that mattered no longer matter and no other thing had taken their place it does make one a bit sad but not depressed. It’s not so much a crying sort of emotion it’s more like the emotion that comes with a nostalgic sigh. The best way I can explain it as imagine a thing you think is mundane and pointless. Nothing terrible nor pleasurable just pointless. Like pressing the number keys above the keyboard in order over and over again. It’s not hard, it’s not painful, and it’s just pointless.

Preforming this task would not make you sad, you simply miss when what you did each day had a point to it. Now add to this everyone around you gets why pushing those numbers is important, wouldn’t you kind of envy them. Even if they are wrong at least they see purpose in it. When I was younger I had depression. This doesn’t feel like that. Depression feels like you are not valuable or good enough, or the world is just terrible. Causing tremendous emotional pain. This is not painful it is hollow. The only pain is in wanting not to feel hollow. So it is no more painful than not being able to afford that Mercedes you had set your eyes on. However wanting a Mercedes does not make one feel hollow.

If I am honest Depression is more tolerable than Emptiness. For some reason I am reminded of a quote from a film I love called unbreakable. I don’t want to spoil the film for anyone but this statement is coming from the Villain to the protagonist “You know what the scariest thing is? To not know your place in this world. To not know why you're here... That's... That's just an awful feeling”. I understand why Elijah felt that way. The awful feeling that is, not what he did to find meaning. He was not Depressed he was empty and for me at least that is worse. Not potentially lethal like depression just more unplesant.
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Re: The most difficult question...why should one live?

Post by Burning ghost »

If I must answer this WHY question then I would say this.

There may be a reason to live and there may not be a reason to live. To hedge my bets I may as well assume there is a "reason". Following this assumption I can then ask what is the reason for living? From here the reason becomes finding the assumed reason for living. The exploration of "living life" moves us toward some discovery.

Basically I am just saying what many people say. The purpose is the pursuit of purpose. Too many times in life I have experienced things I never expected to. I had a goal, dream or aim to work toward (no matter how big/small) and reaching said goal many times never happened and if it did the purpose behind the goal seemed poor compared to the actual journey toward said destination ... again the old adage of "It's about the journey not the destination."

For the depressed what is difficult is to make the motion toward some end (the end does not actually matter though).

Depression is what happens when the Map of Life is no longer visible. One's ability to look outward and forward are drastically reduced (seemingly static).

Always remember the wrong question can lead you down a blind alley which does nothing but shut you off from "living". If you see no point then do something most other people think are extraordinary, take a trip, quit your job, go for a 50 mile walk, dance and sing for no reason in the street (if it doesn't matter and nothing matters then just try merely for the experience of the befuddled looks on peoples faces).

Of course depression can be extreme and those people would not even be able to listen or reason at all. They simply cease to function and become isolated from the world. In that place they are alone. If someone depressed can actually SPEAK then they are open to reason, if they are open to reason they are engaging in life.

If he/she was to ask me "Why should I live?" My answer woul dsimply be "I don't know. If you find out let me know!" If they asked me why I live then I would probably talk and talk to the point where they would probably want to kill themselves (or me!) haha!

We've all experienced existential angst. I would not call it "depression" though. If you understand why you are depressed then you are not depressed. Depression has literally no meaning to it.

Other things to consider are asking questions like "Why am I sad?" or "Why am I happy?". Both to me are pretty dumb questions. This is because we've been taught and condition in education to look for causation (also we have a readily able natural disposition for this too!). I have been in areally place in my life before and when people ask me "Are you happy?", my only genuine reply is to say to them that "happy" relaly doesn't hold the same meaning for me as it used to. In fact it doesn't really mean anything. This is because I have been in a state where I saw happiness and sadness as quite meaningless interpretations of secondary conscious states. This is a very difficult thing to express though, but generally speaking it is to do with self-reflection and to "view oneself". If you can see yourself in all the different states of human emotion you begin to see them as one and the same and it is a very unique and beautiful experience even though it renders these emotional feelings as nothing of significant importance.

In brief think of this like looking upon happiness, sadness and rage as necessary explorations we grow richer from even though they "cloud" perception (and allow perception because they are necessary for perception even though they are fragmented). We all know mood changes perception, so mood basically allows perception and creates change. I four mood never altered we could not perceive. Coming back to depression, this is what is happening. We simply lack motion, we cannot move from emotion to emotion and explore and understand (or even care to which is exactly what depression is. It is a LACK of "motive" about the world).

Existential angst is nothing like depression. Getting stuck on any question and being unable to shift perspective (and emotional states) is what feeding us toward depressive "states" - or rather "non-states".

Hopefully that is a better response than my previous one which was simply to say the question is ill- founded and that it makes more sense to say HOW rather than WHY. Basically I am saying the same thing here! "should" is also a very submissive approach too. The search for "should" reeks of fear of adventure and exploration. Take a risk and ignore the "should" you've been condition by society to adhere to. This is not to say move toward hedonism, nor to deplore it, just MOVE because when you die you won't have the choice to explore different perceptions and beliefs.
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Re: The most difficult question...why should one live?

Post by Eduk »

Family is important, acceptance of friends and colleagues is important, patriotism is important etc.
I would break this down into unconditional and conditional love in a non mutually exclusive spectrum. Patriotism is complex, in that you should probably want to see your country doing well and be proud of it, but it might not be doing well and you might not be proud of it. You could still call yourself a patriot though if you really disliked your country but was doing your best to make it better. Other people have blind patriotism which in my opinion is never a good thing. Same applies to family and friends. We can unconditionally love our children but still have conditions, still see flaws, it all depends what you do with those flaws.

Grotto if you lived me near me I'd invite you over for a beer, maybe it would be meaningful to talk about how meaningless it all is :) Apart from that I've already given my best (and rather limited advice), which shortens down to 'try new stuff' :) Not exactly the work of Socrates but it's the best I can do.

Sometimes though life can surprise you (actually often life can surprise you). I am pretty average in the UK in that I liked football but I disliked running (not running during football, but running on your own in the park or something). I thought running was basically boring and pointless. However there was a period of time when my regular football game was cancelled and I started to get bored of doing nothing so I thought what the hell maybe running is better than nothing. At first it was exactly as I imagined, painful, hard work, boring and pointless. But when I started to get the distance up and the first couple of miles are out of the way I suddenly found myself enjoying it. I'm not a good runner by any stretch of the imagination but I regularly run about 8 miles a week (I'd run more if I had more time) and it's not exactly what I would call fun like football but it's rewarding, I find contentment. The simple act of moving is quite a primal human need I have found.
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Re: The most difficult question...why should one live?

Post by Grotto19 »

Eduk wrote: Grotto if you lived me near me I'd invite you over for a beer, maybe it would be meaningful to talk about how meaningless it all is :) Apart from that I've already given my best (and rather limited advice), which shortens down to 'try new stuff' :) Not exactly the work of Socrates but it's the best I can do.
More often than not philosophers say in too many words what can be said more effectively with few. No group I can think of is more guilty of that than us. And know this my wise friend, your advice as brief as it may be was the only bit I consider useful regarding the matter I have heard thus far. So I suggest do not belittle your own advice, as in this matter. Correct or not you are the only one who offered anything which did not disregard the premise.
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Re: The most difficult question...why should one live?

Post by Belindi »

There is nothing wrong with loving yourself. Loving yourself is one reason for wanting to live. Solitude is very desirable, and if someone else or your dog shares your solitude that is a great thing, but it's entirely possible and very nice to be alone with thoughts, or alternatively with interesting work. There is absolutely no moral duty to like the company of others, although pressures of work or relationships unfortunately mean we have to try to endure company while appearing to be happy to do so. It's great to be retired from work so I can be by myself and stare at a tree for minutes on end if I so desire, and not have to listen to inane chatter unless I choose to do so and usually I don't.

Unhappy thoughts and nostalgia are activities best kept to a minimum by doing or thinking something else, preferably something legal and not fattening.

-- Updated May 26th, 2017, 4:29 am to add the following --

There is nothing wrong with loving yourself. Loving yourself is one reason for wanting to live. Solitude is very desirable, and if someone else or your dog shares your solitude that is a great thing, but it's entirely possible and very nice to be alone with thoughts, or alternatively with interesting work. There is absolutely no moral duty to like the company of others, although pressures of work or relationships unfortunately mean we have to try to endure company while appearing to be happy to do so. It's great to be retired from work so I can be by myself and stare at a tree for minutes on end if I so desire, and not have to listen to inane chatter unless I choose to do so and usually I don't.

Unhappy thoughts and nostalgia are activities best kept to a minimum by doing or thinking something else, preferably something legal and not fattening.
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Re: The most difficult question...why should one live?

Post by Eduk »

Thank you for the kind words Grotto.
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Re: The most difficult question...why should one live?

Post by Judaka »

Hi Grotto

I believe that in some sense the way you phrase your question leads you to your solemn conclusion, "Why should one live?", in this question it is often implied that what life comprises is insufficient and a transcendent justification is required. That question usually views life as a means to an end and since this end is a hollow and meaningless death; thus one surmises that life is equally meaningless. I feel you subscribe to an understanding of meaning whereby meaning is measured causally and what I mean by this is for you living a meaningless life means a life whereby you have nothing to show for it; no end goal and now you wonder what it was all for. It could also be that you could view a life as having "meaningful" or significant events is the measure, where an accumulation of these makes you feel accomplished and justifies your existence also, but really what is important in your OP is that you do not mention the transcendent and instead talk about procreation. I suggest you take one of these two options:

Firstly you could dig deeper into nihilism and change your question, "What meaning is there in having a 'meaningful' life?" There is no reason to believe you will reside amongst the stars to watch over what you have created and find yourself disappointed, and on the day you die - whether you are claimed by despair or smile cynically and wave to life "Goodbye! Thank you and I enjoyed the ride while it lasted" is completely up to you - your values and your perspective. What you yearn for is a legacy but as I see it, a legacy is only as good as it is enjoyed while you are living. If you are fearful that you will be one day find you are ashamed of yourself then change your attitude - the reality is that if you lived and died happy then nobody in the world has done better than you - that can be a fact for you if you embrace it but only if you recognise the nihilistic nature of this world and reject objective morality.

The second option would be to reject nihilism and attain what seems plausible in your description of a meaningful life - a life by which you have something to look at and be proud of yourself for building. This does not have to be children and there are many opportunities for you to build something that you can be proud of. I do not want to demean you by listing options because what you choose should be of your own accord and something that belongs to you - find somebody to help, find something to leave behind and make a mark on this world. I think that so long as that mark is yours and you are proud of it then you will have what you are looking for.
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The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021