I don't understand the perceived threat of transgender

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Hereandnow
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Re: I don't understand the perceived threat of transgender

Post by Hereandnow »

Spectrum:
I believe element 2 - the "us versus them" primal impulse of the anti-transgenders are more older and foundational than element 1.
Thus I suggest [in the future not now] we resolve, prevent and correct the birth defects that give rise to 'transgenderism' first.

If one insist out of blind empathy/compassion and political correctness that transgenderism should stay when we have the competence to prevent it, then one is complicit to condoning the sufferings and oppression of the transgender, e.g. transgenders thrown off tall buildings, bullying, oppression, hated, etc.
You sound like a eugenicist, Spectrum. And further: as if the empathy and compassion you deride have less to do with hard wired systems than the "primal impulses" you support.
I believe element 2 - the "us versus them" primal impulse of the anti-transgenders are more older and foundational than element 1.
Thus I suggest [in the future not now] we resolve, prevent and correct the birth defects that give rise to 'transgenderism' first.
Why oh why would something "older and more foundational" be a basis for settling a modern social issue? Don't you realize that living and breathing in language and culture is itself a superimposition on our billions of years old structures? That these older structures are received in the modern mind as culturally conditioned sublimations of something otherwise alien beyond words? Original impulses? These are not things to conform to; they are things to overcome, modify. Witness the airplane, shoes and socks, dentistry..........
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Re: I don't understand the perceived threat of transgender

Post by Spectrum »

Belindi wrote:Spectrum, it is true that humans have biological natures, just like other life forms. Humans differ from other life forms by creating cultures that bridge generations after generation of humans. These cultures change with natural necessity and technology. 'Gender' is allocated by cultural inheritance: 'sex' is allocated by biological inheritance. Can we agree on these two simple meanings?

I am aware that 'gender' is often used interchangeably with 'sex'. However The reason I am using the terms more precisely and sociologically is that transgender issues are sociological. Transgender behaviour is behaviour; transgender behaviour is not reproductive organs or sexual orientation.

True, rarely a hermaphrodite is born. Hermaphrodites are not transgender people, although they may be.
I have to remind you again of the issue related to the OP.

The term 'gender' is a loose term and used differently by different people.
To avoid confusions, I prefer to use the term 'gender' to represent male or female but express the differences as follows;
  • 1. Gender - biological and physical differences between male and female.
    2. Gender - mental, psychological, emotional differences
    3. Gender - cultural and social constructs
The issue of "threat" from the primal 'us versus them' impulse of the OP is related the bad wiring between 1 [physical-biological] & 2 [mental - psychological].

The cultural and social issues your are banging on are not critical elements to the problem raised in the OP.

The issue I raised is quite independent from the social and cultural factors.
The problem of "transgender" is a birth defect and begins before birth which is not effected by social and cultural factors.

There are lots of empirical evidences and studies of physically male children of less than one year old showing feminine tendencies. There are two years old male toddlers would prefer toys normally played by little girls and like the dressing of their sister than those of their brother.
The 'normal' male boys [2-5] years old will natural prefer rough play, toy soldiers, guns, knives, etc. The abnormal male boys [2-5] years old who are already transgender due to bad wiriings would prefer to play with their sisters' barbie toys and what the average little girls would natural be inclined to.

I have been following the Story of Jazz Jennings who stated how 'he' preferred feminine things at a very young age.
'His' preference then [at a very young age] to be 'she' could not be cultural nor social because his [then] brother who was brought up in the same parents, social and cultural environment is not a transgender. This is a very common scenario with other transgenders. This prove that the issue of transgender [bad wiring] is an inherent inborn factor and whatever cultural and social factors are secondary.

Given the the dilemma of between solving the inherent inborn transgenders and the anti-transgenders, my proposals [for future not now] is to prevent and correct the birth defect of transgender. It should only be done when we have the competency to do so without side effects, and it should be voluntary [never forced].
'Gender' is allocated by cultural inheritance: 'sex' is allocated by biological inheritance. Can we agree on these two simple meanings?
I can agree 'Gender-cultural' is allocated by cultural factors.
But you seem not to understand the very obvious, the inherent inborn gender related to the mental and psychological specific to each gender/sex.

Your veering towards social and cultural factors influencing gender is off topic to the OP.

-- Updated Fri Aug 18, 2017 1:45 am to add the following --

Generally a trans-woman will declare she is a girl [mentally and psychologically] trapped in a man's body [physically].

I believe the proper narrative is, a trans-woman is a physical male [hardware] who is wrongly connected [neural wise] with a female mental program [the software] at birth.
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Re: I don't understand the perceived threat of transgender

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Spectrum -
Given the the dilemma of between solving the inherent inborn transgenders and the anti-transgenders, my proposals [for future not now] is to prevent and correct the birth defect of transgender. It should only be done when we have the competency to do so without side effects, and it should be voluntary [never forced].
I am not satisfied you've provided enough evidence to conclude that people are congenially "anti-transgender"? Or am I misinterpreting what you mean by "anti-transgender"? You are saying, are you not, that people are born with a dislike of transgenders? This sounds quite absurd to me so I would like to see a little more than using the argument that people fear differences as the sole foundation of such a statement please.
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Re: I don't understand the perceived threat of transgender

Post by Belindi »

Spectrum wrote:
The cultural and social issues your are banging on are not critical elements to the problem raised in the OP.


I have explained as well as I can how the cultural and social aspects matter to the health and happiness of people who want to change their physical sex ; similarly to children who are persuaded by significant others that they must conform to gender-sex stereotypes.
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Re: I don't understand the perceived threat of transgender

Post by Hereandnow »

Eduk:
Like I said, I just don't get it. Who's dying?
Not so much a who, rather a what. And what is dying is moral dogmatism. Don't know exactly where this is going, but I would hazard that in a couple of generations the culture will be far, far removed from the present on this issue.
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Re: I don't understand the perceived threat of transgender

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Burning ghost wrote:Spectrum -
Given the the dilemma of between solving the inherent inborn transgenders and the anti-transgenders, my proposals [for future not now] is to prevent and correct the birth defect of transgender. It should only be done when we have the competency to do so without side effects, and it should be voluntary [never forced].
I am not satisfied you've provided enough evidence to conclude that people are congenially "anti-transgender"? Or am I misinterpreting what you mean by "anti-transgender"? You are saying, are you not, that people are born with a dislike of transgenders? This sounds quite absurd to me so I would like to see a little more than using the argument that people fear differences as the sole foundation of such a statement please.
Note there is the evolved and inherent primal 'us versus them' impulse which is critical to facilitate survival but on the other side of the blade, can generate unnecessary contempt to what is regarded as not in their 'in-group.' What is perceived to be abnormal is deemed to be of the 'out-group' and thus deemed as a threat.
If we estimate 10% of all humans are very sensitive with the "us versus them" impulse that has a disgust for the transgenders [the perceived abnormal], that would be 700 million plus.

The above is the general.
What is more specific is the Abrahamic God is anti-transgenders as grouped together with the gays. The God of the Bible and Allah destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah plus the people therein with rains of burning stones. Therefore the 4 billion+ Abrahamic believers has to side with God to be anti-gays and anti-transgenders.
It is so evident where the jihadists are throwing gays [including transgenders] alive from tall buildings. Elsewhere homosexuals and transgenders are burnt alive, killed in whatever ways, tortured and oppressed, and all sorts of evil are thrown at them.

Still not convinced there are inherent anti-transgender and religiously driven anti-transgenders??
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Re: I don't understand the perceived threat of transgender

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There is an answer - identify those who are at most risk of being intolerant of diversity and perform genetic modification to bring them in line :)
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Re: I don't understand the perceived threat of transgender

Post by Spectrum »

Belindi wrote:Spectrum wrote:
The cultural and social issues your are banging on are not critical elements to the problem raised in the OP.
I have explained as well as I can how the cultural and social aspects matter to the health and happiness of people who want to change their physical sex ; similarly to children who are persuaded by significant others that they must conform to gender-sex stereotypes.
I have to remind you, your cultural and social issues are not relevant to the OP.

What I have highlighted are the root causes related to the OP and I have suggested the effective strategies to resolve the problem in the FUTURE, not now.

As for now we need to attentive to the children and if children like Jazz [video above] who showed signs of transgenders at a very early age, the parents should be more understanding in accommodating to the children with the help of child psychiatrists and counselors.

I presume psychiatrists as professionals will do their very best with the best of knowledge to advise what is most appropriate.

The hardcore theists [e.g. Abrahamic believers] will likely to insist on the gender-sex stereotypes because God said so. What can you do about this? Put a gun to their head so that they conform to your expectations?

Point is, even we cannot do anything at present, we must make an attempt to understand the root causes, biological and mental processes related to trangenderism [as a birth defect] and strive hard to find answers.

I am optimistic in the future [given the trend of the present] humanity will be able to prevent and correct such birth defect of 'transgenderism' without side effects, will be foolproof and voluntary. Despite the care and qualifications I find most are very paranoid over the suggestions [objective] I have made for the future.
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Re: I don't understand the perceived threat of transgender

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Spectrum -
Note there is the evolved and inherent primal 'us versus them' impulse which is critical to facilitate survival but on the other side of the blade, can generate unnecessary contempt to what is regarded as not in their 'in-group.' What is perceived to be abnormal is deemed to be of the 'out-group' and thus deemed as a threat.
It is still a flimsy position and not strictly true. People are not only fearful, they are curious too. So, no I am not convinced it is a strong enough argument although I would not deny societal institutions and sociopolitical systems impose certain views upon peoples.

If people are dogmatic that is a problem of society that needs to be refined perhaps. It seems we've come a long way in the past couple of centuries. It has been a rocky ride and will continue to be and the waters calm.

I think if there is anything we "should" do, one thing we most certainly shouldn't do is pander to fear and ignorance. Neither do I think we "should" cure this ignorance by physiologically bypassing the individual and directly altering the brain. There is a stark difference between reasoning with someone to get the truth from them and drugging them to get the truth.

You've make previous attempts to compare talking to someone using reason and persuasion, and chemically (physically) making changes to a person's brain.

I find it a disturbing thing to say, although I am interested in how you've noramalised such an idea in your head?
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Re: I don't understand the perceived threat of transgender

Post by Spectrum »

Burning ghost wrote:Spectrum -
Note there is the evolved and inherent primal 'us versus them' impulse which is critical to facilitate survival but on the other side of the blade, can generate unnecessary contempt to what is regarded as not in their 'in-group.' What is perceived to be abnormal is deemed to be of the 'out-group' and thus deemed as a threat.
It is still a flimsy position and not strictly true. People are not only fearful, they are curious too. So, no I am not convinced it is a strong enough argument although I would not deny societal institutions and sociopolitical systems impose certain views upon peoples.

If people are dogmatic that is a problem of society that needs to be refined perhaps. It seems we've come a long way in the past couple of centuries. It has been a rocky ride and will continue to be and the waters calm.

I think if there is anything we "should" do, one thing we most certainly shouldn't do is pander to fear and ignorance. Neither do I think we "should" cure this ignorance by physiologically bypassing the individual and directly altering the brain. There is a stark difference between reasoning with someone to get the truth from them and drugging them to get the truth.

You've make previous attempts to compare talking to someone using reason and persuasion, and chemically (physically) making changes to a person's brain.

I find it a disturbing thing to say, although I am interested in how you've normalised such an idea in your head?
As per the OP, currently there is a problem related to the transgenders [Gender dysphoria]. If you are up to date with the News, there is obviously a problem in relation to transgenders ranging from bullying, pushed to suicide, sex change, daily hormone injections, which toilet to use, etc..

If a problem is raised and justified I am always game for it. As I had claimed problem-solving techniques are one of my forte. Don't seem to be yours. Applying the relevant problem solving techniques to the problem raised in the OP, I have traced the root causes and arrived at two root causes that need to be resolved, i.e.
  • 1. The inherent problem of transgenderism or Gender dysphoria. Note this point and the associated psychological problems.
    Gender dysphoria involves a conflict between a person's physical or assigned gender and the gender with which he/she/they identify. People with gender dysphoria may be very uncomfortable with the gender they were assigned, sometimes described as being uncomfortable with their body (particularly developments during puberty) or being uncomfortable with the expected roles of their assigned gender.

    People with gender dysphoria may often experience significant distress and/or problems functioning associated with this conflict between the way they feel and think of themselves (referred to as experienced or expressed gender) and their physical or assigned gender.

    The gender conflict affects people in different ways. It can change the way a person wants to express their gender and can influence behavior, dress and self-image. Some people may cross-dress, some may want to socially transition, others may want to medically transition with sex-change surgery and/or hormone treatment. Socially transitioning primarily involves transitioning into the affirmed gender’s pronouns and bathrooms.
    https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-fam ... -dysphoria
    2. The inherent 'us versus them' i.e. in-group versus out-group and the natural aggression that arise from this dichotomy.
    wiki wrote:Discrimination between ingroups and outgroups is a matter of favoritism towards an ingroup and the absence of equivalent favoritism towards an outgroup.[7] Outgroup derogation is the phenomenon in which an outgroup is perceived as being threatening to the members of an ingroup.[8] This phenomenon often accompanies ingroup favoritism, as it requires one to have an affinity towards their ingroup. Some research suggests that outgroup derogation occurs when an outgroup is perceived as blocking or hindering the goals of an ingroup. It has also been argued that outgroup derogation is a natural consequence of the categorization process.
I don't get what you meant by "normalize."
I have analyzed and presented the problem objectively ending with either we resolve 1 or 2 to the problem raised in the OP.
I don't see any other alternative to the above identified problem.

I have also argued in the longer run [Future not now] it is easier to resolve the problem of Gender dysphoria than getting rid of the inherent primal "us versus them" impulse or instinct.

You are not a problem solver. It is as if when patients with medical problems visit you as a doctor, all you do is ask them to shut up and go home with the hope the problem will go away.

I have presented my proposals in line with the identified problem per the OP objectively.
Other than your personal feelings and intuitive, just show me objectively where my steps are wrong?

If you are an effective problem solver, you will definitely arrive at the same conclusions as I had presented, there is no other way given the existing and potential future circumstances.
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Re: I don't understand the perceived threat of transgender

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Spectrum -

I see what you mean. I guess the microscopic problem is inherent of the current political climate. I think Jordan Peterson refers to such and views the issue as being part of the larger problem? I'll find vid later.

I do view the issue as being reflective of humanity becoming more and more communicative, but I can see how this can easily skew off topic ... mmmm! I'll have to think this over, and I can gather you can at least see how I have been a little disturbed by my interpretation of what you've said? If not I can try and expose this better if you wish?

I may very well have taken the "threat" in the theme of this thread out of context now I look at it. I think the confusion expression in the OP has maybe fed this and if this is the true case with which the OP is trying to get at then a great many other posts here appear to have taken the same mistaken line.

I view the "problem" as being something much vaster than this one instance. It is most definitely correlated to the "us and them" psychology, but then we are stepping outside the confines of this particular instance into other "us and them" attitudes we get thrown at us everyday (like "leftist", "alt-right", "liberal"). Anyway, let me stew in this for a while and take a step back.

Zizek mentions something about this too, and the problem of people now trying to label themselves as "non-human" and such things. There is most certainly a problem of delineation and misuse of delineation. This is why I mentioned the coming into being of the modern term (only last century) of "homosexual" and "heterosexual".
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Re: I don't understand the perceived threat of transgender

Post by Belindi »

Spectrum wrote:
As for now we need to attentive to the children and if children like Jazz [video above] who showed signs of transgenders at a very early age, the parents should be more understanding in accommodating to the children with the help of child psychiatrists and counselors.
What are "signs of transgenders"?

I presume that what you mean is those behaviours that the child in question evinced, which were different from the behaviours that people from his society, who shared the same culture of beliefs and prejudices as the child's significant others, would regard as inappropriate to his physical sex.

You did , actually, agree with me to use the word 'gender' to apply (for the purposes of this conversation) to the that any given society allocates to biological males or females.

The child in question chose which roles in society he-she would do. For some reason the child in question was able to chose , but the brother of the child was not able to chose to be so unusual. Thus far we agree, Spectrum.

Where we differ is that while I ascribe the child's behaviour to social influences, you ascribe the child's behaviour to inherently biological influences.
It is commonly understood that authoritarians believe that the human is fixed as God or nature made him; while liberals believe that the human is very much as product of his social habitat.

The upshot of the authoritarian/biological stance is to legislate for sameness among humans: the liberal/cultural stance results in acceptance of difference among individuals.

If the society's prevailing culture of beliefs is liberal/cultural all individuals have a wide choice among acceptable behaviours. On the other hand, if the society's prevailing culture of beliefs is authoritarian/biological all individuals are required by society to fit the same narrower range of behaviours.

So-called 'racism' and fear of foreigners fits with the latter culture of beliefs.
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Re: I don't understand the perceived threat of transgender

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Spectrum -

I cannot find the reference I meant right now but this should add some lively action to our understanding which we can relate to being a "socio-political" problem.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtgKRpjVXSg

I am pretty sure the point I was referring to was made in his discussion with a transsexual online, where he mentions the subject as being reflective of a different conflict within society (which is the question of the OP regarding the significance of this subject compared to children dying in wars).

Here we can see something coming across which I would personally relate to the effect of mass global communication, the social effect of the internet and clash of cultures. We have effectively been exposed (as a whole human species I mean, and some more than others) to being "forced" to confront the "them". There is a violent wave across the globe because of this. Even the more traditionally isolated societies in the world have been suddenly opened up to the rest of the world although lower classes have been exposed in a minimal way in some regions (such as rural India, some being quite ignorant of the internet and such things.)

I see the whole subject of transgenderism being merely ONE instance that just so happens to have been cast into the limelight, but I do not see it as being a problem of social conflict in and of itself, but rather a conflict of global proportions and reflective, as you say, of some religious traditions and very much part and parcel of the patriarchal mainstay of human society being brought into a "collective unconscious" upheaval in a Jungian psychological sense.

Also I am most certainly oversimplifying the complexity of this because I am not taking into consideration economic models and governing systems which also have to adjust to these very "violent" times ("violent" meaning the communications and information explosion future historians will likely be drooling over in the distant future of the human race.)

-- Updated August 19th, 2017, 5:54 am to add the following --

Spectrum -

I cannot find the reference I meant right now but this should add some lively action to our understanding which we can relate to being a "socio-political" problem.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtgKRpjVXSg

I am pretty sure the point I was referring to was made in his discussion with a transsexual online, where he mentions the subject as being reflective of a different conflict within society (which is the question of the OP regarding the significance of this subject compared to children dying in wars).

Here we can see something coming across which I would personally relate to the effect of mass global communication, the social effect of the internet and clash of cultures. We have effectively been exposed (as a whole human species I mean, and some more than others) to being "forced" to confront the "them". There is a violent wave across the globe because of this. Even the more traditionally isolated societies in the world have been suddenly opened up to the rest of the world although lower classes have been exposed in a minimal way in some regions (such as rural India, some being quite ignorant of the internet and such things.)

I see the whole subject of transgenderism being merely ONE instance that just so happens to have been cast into the limelight, but I do not see it as being a problem of social conflict in and of itself, but rather a conflict of global proportions and reflective, as you say, of some religious traditions and very much part and parcel of the patriarchal mainstay of human society being brought into a "collective unconscious" upheaval in a Jungian psychological sense.

Also I am most certainly oversimplifying the complexity of this because I am not taking into consideration economic models and governing systems which also have to adjust to these very "violent" times ("violent" meaning the communications and information explosion future historians will likely be drooling over in the distant future of the human race.)

-- Updated August 19th, 2017, 5:57 am to add the following --

NOTE: Peterson's remark at 8 mins about "novelty" being presented as "bias".
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Re: I don't understand the perceived threat of transgender

Post by Spectrum »

Belindi wrote:Spectrum wrote:
As for now we need to attentive to the children and if children like Jazz [video above] who showed signs of transgenders at a very early age, the parents should be more understanding in accommodating to the children with the help of child psychiatrists and counselors.
What are "signs of transgenders"?

I presume that what you mean is those behaviours that the child in question evinced, which were different from the behaviours that people from his society, who shared the same culture of beliefs and prejudices as the child's significant others, would regard as inappropriate to his physical sex.
You are still conflating and confusing the issue.
I am not referring to beliefs and prejudices arising from cultural and social thinking.

There is an inherent and distinct mode of physical and mental difference amongt the majority within the animal kingdom, i.e. what is general distinguish as male and female.
The male and female has distinct physical features [this is obvious] but the males and females in the animal kingdom also has distinct behavioral differences.
For example, very young female and male chimpanzees behave differently, i.e. the males are more aggressive and involve in more play fighting than the females. There are other noticeable distinct traits and behavior between males and females in the animal kingdom. This distinct difference has nothing to do with cultural and social expectation of the elder chimpanzees. These basic distinctions are merely instinctive.

The basic distinctions in behaviors with the animal kingdom, especially the primates are also present in the humans [i.e. same ancestors evolving in parallel]. As I had stated very young males -boys [innocent without influence of society and culture] behaves distinctively different from the very young average females.
I noted you do not seem to acknowledge this fact, i.e. not seeing the 500 pound gorrilla because your mind is tuned to something else which is off topic.
You did , actually, agree with me to use the word 'gender' to apply (for the purposes of this conversation) to the that any given society allocates to biological males or females.
I am not sure on this point?
I have used gender in this format;
http://onlinephilosophyclub.com/forums/ ... 89#p293589
  • 1. Gender - biological and physical differences between male and female.
    2. Gender - mental, psychological, emotional differences
    3. Gender - cultural and social constructs
The child in question chose which roles in society he-she would do. For some reason the child in question was able to chose , but the brother of the child was not able to chose to be so unusual. Thus far we agree, Spectrum.
The brother was normally programmed as a physical male with male mental and psychological programs, so that the brother is male [physically and mentally] all the way, so that is no confusion in his mind and thus there was no question of him having to choose anything.
Where we differ is that while I ascribe the child's behaviour to social influences, you ascribe the child's behaviour to inherently biological influences.
It is commonly understood that authoritarians believe that the human is fixed as God or nature made him; while liberals believe that the human is very much as product of his social habitat.
That I believed 'the child's behaviour to inherently biological influences' is based on scientific evidence and fact. Wonder why are you denying this?
It is very intellectually dishonest to ignore this fact.

I agree a child's behavior can be influenced by social and cultural factors. A male child that is brought up surrounding only by females is likely to behave in a very feminine manner but if his male [psychical and mental] is strong he is like to sway towards 100% macho maleness when he reached puberty.

What prevails must be the scientific facts.
What the religious [doctrinal] and liberal [ideology] believe is based on rigid and dogmatic thinking and they ignore the scientific facts.
The upshot of the authoritarian/biological stance is to legislate for sameness among humans: the liberal/cultural stance results in acceptance of difference among individuals.
Nah, both the authoritarian/biological and liberal/cultural [albeit on opposite ends] are ignorant of the real facts and end up torturing the transgenders directly and indirectly with various forms of sufferings.
If the society's prevailing culture of beliefs is liberal/cultural all individuals have a wide choice among acceptable behaviours. On the other hand, if the society's prevailing culture of beliefs is authoritarian/biological all individuals are required by society to fit the same narrower range of behaviours.
So-called 'racism' and fear of foreigners fits with the latter culture of beliefs.
As I had said currently we do not have the knowledge and competence, so we let whoever makes the most noise get their way.
The liberal will want the transgenders to get their way but at the same time exposing them to the possibility of torture and death by the anti-transgender.

I am a very concerned citizen of humanity and I have strove to find solutions to the dilemma of the transgender problem by suggesting effective solutions in the future when we have the necessary knowledge and competence to deal with the birth defect of Gender dysphoria, or gender identity disorder (GID).

-- Updated Sat Aug 19, 2017 10:26 pm to add the following --
[b]Burning ghost[/b] wrote:NOTE: Peterson's remark at 8 mins about "novelty" being presented as "bias".
The problem related to the transgenders is amplifying and expanding.

In Peter Jordanson's case, it is a question of free speech, he does not want to be compelled to use words by Law when addressing another person.
Jordanson as a Canadian Professor [as with others] is now compelled by Law -Bill C16 - to obey what his students demand of what pronouns they should be called.
Thus if his student, a transgender demand 'it' be addressed as 'Zer' instead of 'her' then he has to obey Zer's wishes. If Jordanson do not address that person as 'Zer' then he is committing a legal crime as well as the University that is employing him as a professor.

To me such a Law is ridiculous and bother on stupidity.
This is an infringement on the basic human right to free speech.

As I had highlighted there are loads of other problems [with the transgender and the anti-transgender] associated with the birth defect of Gender dysphoria, or gender identity disorder (GID)transgenderism.

What I have done is to approach the problem objectively, identified the critical root causes and provided solutions to various scenarios and in the future.
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Re: I don't understand the perceived threat of transgender

Post by Burning ghost »

Spectrum -

I still think you're presenting "novelty" as innate "bias" by saying people are born "anti-transgender". That is my main problem with what you're saying and the best you've done it is support the idea by referring to "us and them" psychology. To be fair you've mentioned religious attitudes and such too and I think that is more part of the issue regarding "anti-transgender". For me is a further extension of people in western society coming to terms with gender roles and various back and forth, due to communications, which fans the flames.

note: That many transgender people don't care about being defined as "he" or "she" and we are not talking about the whole trangender community we're talking about a few political opportunists and/or extremists.

This reminds me a little of the recent McEnroe comment that was punished into the media spotlight because of some insane pseudo feminism. Luckily enough feminists came out and said how stupid the whoel situation was. What happens now though is the story gets put out there and every someone and no one staunchly expresses their opinions and often without any real understand of the topic at hand. The media loves the sensationalism and people waste time having to state obvious stupidities which tend to simply fan the flames of the blind ideologies held by people out there. It is a mob mentality and a very seductive medium for ignorant rebellion.

At the moment I agree with Peterson. The whoel trangender debate is merely a symptom of a larger change (a change I relate directly to global communications and social media.)

So, I don't see any need to provide a solution to a problem that doesn't really exist, a problem I see as a item in the news that happens to magnify certain arguments and displace the heart of the issue onto some sensationist piece of news. The very occurance of this becoming an issue is to me more telling of the root problem in general. I think it is a necessary process and a necessarily rough process. Some societal qualities will suffer and others will flourish.

I am addressing the OP though which asked why it was such a problem. To which my answer is (to be clear), it is NOT a problem, but a symptom of complex societal shifts involving politics, patriarchal disruption/understanding (meaning coming to terms with gender differences in the wake of trying to establish some idealistic "equality"), and the group and individual psychology involved in this dynamic including a swathe of different factors such as law, human rights, mass communication, freedom of speech, family units and much, much more.

Do I offer a solution? Absolutely not! The problem is simply too big for any one person to understand well enough. The next best thing is doing what you're doing and trying to piece together a "gist" argument and pushing it to reveal the cracks. If you cannot see the cracks rthen you're not looking hard enough, and just because you see flaws I am not saying you should stop pressing either. We have to accept a degree of ignorance and do the best we can.

Do you agree that "us and them" is also countered by "curiosity". Without curiosity we'd never move. I find it overly willful of you to latch onto the aspect of human nature that fits your model of understanding and ignoring, or at least not presenting a counter argument to it. The main question here being can you argue against your own position? Is that what you are looking for? IF not why the hell not?

If you really wish to place the title of "problem solver" above your head then show me how you'd counter your own position please. We could learn a great deal from this and then you may even find me engaging in a debate where we're both arguing against each other and against ourselves too. THAT would be very interesting to me and is actually the very function which is happening over social media every day and one which I believe needs to happen more and more. For people to engage in discussions and debates, be misunderstood and then come to the realization that there is something to learn from what many refer to as "toxic forums".

If you wish to start a thread about how to get rid of transgenderism from society go ahead. No harm in continuing here either I think? I doubt Eduk would mind.
AKA badgerjelly
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2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021