What is perfect?

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Alias
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Re: What is perfect?

Post by Alias »

Spectrum wrote:It is not specifically mentioned in the Bible but it is obvious in the Quran, i.e. Allahu Akbar, i.e. God is Great to the extent there is no other God except Allah which is all powerful and thus perfect.
I accept that as a generally accepted interpretation of greatness, even though it gives little information about perfection itself.
Perfection is not explicit in the Bible, but it is Christian philosophers like St. Anselm who introduced the ontological God, i.e.
Thanks. Those are good sources of authoritative commentary. I must remember Anselm.
So my argument still stands;
  • Absolute perfection is an impossibility
    God imperatively must be absolutely perfect
    Therefore God is an impossibility.
I never doubted its validity.

-- Updated October 17th, 2017, 6:04 pm to add the following --

So, those sources date the elevation of Jehovah to perfection as a requisite of Godhood, after the challenge from Islam and before the challenge from science (about half way).
He'd been growing more aloof from Earth and the daily concerns of mankind since the start of the Christian era, when Roman administrators took over as His agents,
and as Europe is consolidated under the RC, He takes up the position of Big Omni
- a logically indefensible position that all subsequent apologists are automatically committed to defend.
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Those who can induce you to believe absurdities can induce you to commit atrocities. - Voltaire
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Sound Bite
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Re: What is perfect?

Post by Sound Bite »

Firstly, I had to ask myself what y'all meant to by "perfection". I mean, what exactly is the criteria here for "perfection"?

Obviously the criteria couldn't have been about something produced naturally otherwise Nature would have been nominated hands down — you know, with Her unyielding adherence to the laws and forces of Her Lord Cosmos... hence how She is permitted to blossom unspoiled and perpetually forever and forever, and always retaining her opulence and vigour and... a certain courage — even when planets shatter: She. will. nonetheless. stand. by.

And of course anything that man produces is schemingly determined beforehand and tediously manufactured by calculated "risk" — and all in accordence to monetary projections, commercial value, and collateral returns. How very tiresome. And then after the excitement and then the lull sets in, their great pride and joy turns to a great thud bestowed to the oblivious receptacle like digested unfashionable memories — from le passé — hardly the stuff of pristine perfection, lol.

Art? Artists perfecting their art? But there again one is inadvertently interrupted by their imperfect and all too human psychology (which we celebrate nonetheless, god knows why). Yet, there is something there...

So then I wager that y'all mean "perfection" to be something produced after the fact.

Like, like... what the artist wishes to reproduce but quite can't, whether externally or internally...

like a lake's reflection, the clouds reflecting the light, a rainbow reflecting the Sun, a mirror reflecting our flaws?
Spectrum
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Re: What is perfect?

Post by Spectrum »

Albert Tatlock wrote:
Spectrum wrote: So my argument still stands;
  • Absolute perfection is an impossibility
    God imperatively must be absolutely perfect
    Therefore God is an impossibility.
Your premises are only relevant to a particular description of God so your conclusion only applies to that God.
Kant argued all arguments for the existence of God ultimately end up with an ontological God [the absolutely perfect God].
Any other god is an inferior god to some other gods.

There are many theists who accept a variety of gods of various qualities and description [e.g. those of the Romans, Greeks, Hindus, etc], but ultimately they will end up with one most superior God no other gods can be greater than.
These days no respected theists will argue for any anthropomorphic god, god with a beard in the sky, god of thunder, god of the sea, etc.

Presently, the theists' best bet is the ontological God which my argument is based.
My argument covers God the greatest, i.e. no other greater can be conceived of.

-- Updated Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:59 pm to add the following --
Chili wrote:Is it not an expression of supreme human hubris to conclude that if people "cannot conceive" of an entity that it must be *perfect* ?
No doubt there's all *kinds* of imperfect stuff I can't conceive of. ;)
That is possible but who would want absolute imperfection to represent greatness for humanity. I believe absolute imperfection in terms of agency would ultimately represent absolute evil.

-- Updated Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:06 pm to add the following --
[b]Alias[/b] wrote:
Spectrum wrote:It is not specifically mentioned in the Bible but it is obvious in the Quran, i.e. Allahu Akbar, i.e. God is Great to the extent there is no other God except Allah which is all powerful and thus perfect.
I accept that as a generally accepted interpretation of greatness, even though it gives little information about perfection itself.
If we analyze further, the ontological imply perfection.
If a perfect circle is conceived via thought [only], we do not expect one to claim a more perfect circle. Ontologically [not relative perfection], perfect means no greater absolute perfection can be conceived of.
So my argument still stands;
  • Absolute perfection is an impossibility
    God imperatively must be absolutely perfect
    Therefore God is an impossibility.
I never doubted its validity.[/quote]
I meant generally and to all theists.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
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Albert Tatlock
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Re: What is perfect?

Post by Albert Tatlock »

Spectrum wrote: My argument covers God the greatest, i.e. no other greater can be conceived of.
Once one has conceived the greatest God one can conceive, how can he be sure no one else has managed to conceive one greater, I wonder.
Spectrum
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Re: What is perfect?

Post by Spectrum »

Albert Tatlock wrote:
Spectrum wrote: My argument covers God the greatest, i.e. no other greater can be conceived of.
Once one has conceived the greatest God one can conceive, how can he be sure no one else has managed to conceive one greater, I wonder.
There is no question of being sure empirically, but only by reason, logic and thought.

The ontological God is;
'God is a being than which none greater can be conceived'

The above statement is something like 1 + 1 = 2.
If you conceived the answer as anything else than 2, then by reason it is wrong.

".. none greater can be conceived" meant by reason, whatever 'greater' god one claimed, there is always one that is greater. Thus the one who claimed the ontological God will always [by default of reason] has the upper hand.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
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Albert Tatlock
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Re: What is perfect?

Post by Albert Tatlock »

Spectrum wrote: There is no question of being sure empirically, but only by reason, logic and thought.

The ontological God is;
'God is a being than which none greater can be conceived'

The above statement is something like 1 + 1 = 2.
If you conceived the answer as anything else than 2, then by reason it is wrong.

".. none greater can be conceived" meant by reason, whatever 'greater' god one claimed, there is always one that is greater. Thus the one who claimed the ontological God will always [by default of reason] has the upper hand.
Okay, If you're trying to disprove this "ontological argument" thing, that's fair enough. Although why anyone would take it seriously enough to go to the bother is puzzling. What does "none greater can be conceived" even mean? It's like saying you can conceive the reddest red that can be conceived or the coldest cold that can be conceived. Anyway, even if you've proved that particular argument false, that is not the same as proving there's no God.
Spectrum
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Re: What is perfect?

Post by Spectrum »

Albert Tatlock wrote:
Spectrum wrote: There is no question of being sure empirically, but only by reason, logic and thought.

The ontological God is;
'God is a being than which none greater can be conceived'

The above statement is something like 1 + 1 = 2.
If you conceived the answer as anything else than 2, then by reason it is wrong.

".. none greater can be conceived" meant by reason, whatever 'greater' god one claimed, there is always one that is greater. Thus the one who claimed the ontological God will always [by default of reason] has the upper hand.
Okay, If you're trying to disprove this "ontological argument" thing, that's fair enough. Although why anyone would take it seriously enough to go to the bother is puzzling. What does "none greater can be conceived" even mean? It's like saying you can conceive the reddest red that can be conceived or the coldest cold that can be conceived. Anyway, even if you've proved that particular argument false, that is not the same as proving there's no God.
If God is an impossibility, the question of 'God' is moot and a non-starter. In this case there is no question of having to prove there is no God at all.

In the first place, God do not exists as real.
The 'idea' of God is illusory, and it is merely an idea conjure to soothe a psychological desperation, i.e. existential dilemma.
This existential dilemma has existed in human beings from the start and humans has been inventing the idea of God to soothe the arising angst. In time the ideas of God through the ages were subjected to continual critiques and theists begin to redefine their God to counter each critique raised against its existence.
Note the man in the sky, the wide range of argument for God, the cosmological arguments were all subjected to weakness.

The ontological argument ["none greater can be conceived"] is one of the last bastion of argument for the existence of God but even this cannot stand up to rational arguments as I had demonstrated re absolute perfection is an impossibility.

The basic premise is, God do not exists in the first place, the 'idea' was invented for an inherent desperate psychological situation.
No matter how theists argue for God's existence, they will never succeed because the idea of God is based on faith for a psychological reason.

The basis of God is psychological is not baseless nor something new. The ancients [e.g. the Buddhists] has recognized this a psychological problem and came up with psychological approaches to deal with the problem [dukkha = sufferings] rather than cling to an illusory God.
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Albert Tatlock
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Re: What is perfect?

Post by Albert Tatlock »

Spectrum wrote: No matter how theists argue for God's existence, they will never succeed because the idea of God is based on faith for a psychological reason.
No, they can't prove the existence of God but no one can prove his non existence either.
Spectrum
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Re: What is perfect?

Post by Spectrum »

Albert Tatlock wrote:
Spectrum wrote: No matter how theists argue for God's existence, they will never succeed because the idea of God is based on faith for a psychological reason.
No, they can't prove the existence of God but no one can prove his non existence either.
You don't seem to get the point.
Since God is an impossibility, there is no question of proving the non-existence of God. As I had stated the idea of God in this case is a non-starter.
The point 'no one can prove his non existence either' is moot.

It is same with a square-circle which is an impossibility.
When one understand this contradiction, one will not bother with proving a square-circle do not exists.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
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Albert Tatlock
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Re: What is perfect?

Post by Albert Tatlock »

Spectrum wrote: You don't seem to get the point.
Since God is an impossibility, there is no question of proving the non-existence of God.
Right, so you are only addressing your argument to those who agree with you that God is an impossibility. I get it now.
Chili
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Re: What is perfect?

Post by Chili »

Spectrum wrote: The 'idea' of God is illusory, and it is merely an idea conjure to soothe a psychological desperation, i.e. existential dilemma.


In the beginnings, it was anything but.

Children - and certainly adults - wondered what various parts of the world were and what they came from. Without reductionism, and surrounded by people and animals with agendas, it seems certainly "logical" for people to interpret everything around them in terms of invisible agents. Like the shoemaker and the elves, the various gifts and threats of nature must be created by these deities.

wikipedia > The_Elves_and_the_Shoemaker

Even a monotheistic God serves as an answer to curiosity about origins.
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LuckyR
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Re: What is perfect?

Post by LuckyR »

Perfection has two common meanings, neither of which make a lot of sense in the context of the OP's question. The first is one of pure personal opinion, for example, if I ask a kid what would the perfect meal for lunch today, he might answer chocolate ice cream. Great so I make him some. The next kid says cheese pizza etc. In that scenario perfection is an individual preference and thus there cannot be a constant perfection for anyone and cannot be perfection for two individuals (let alone a society) since their preferences will diverge.

In the second common meaning, the use of the word is more granular. Perfection as in subatomic symmetry, it is totally unclear and unpredictable what such a situation would mean for humans and their societies.

My read of the OP is alluding to a third use of the word that numerous posts have not been able to nail down.
"As usual... it depends."
Alias
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Re: What is perfect?

Post by Alias »

Albert Tatlock wrote:[Spectrum - You don't seem to get the point.
Since God is an impossibility, there is no question of proving the non-existence of God.]
Right, so you are only addressing your argument to those who agree with you that God is an impossibility. I get it now.
No, you don't.
The impossibility is predicated on the requirement that God be perfect coupled with the impossibility of perfection existing in an imperfect universe.
While a perfect god might exist in concept, it can't exist physically. One might exist outside the universe, but not in the universe we know.
It's not necessary to disprove the existence of something that is by its own definition self-exclusive.

-- Updated October 18th, 2017, 10:41 am to add the following --
LuckyR wrote: Perfection as in subatomic symmetry, it is totally unclear and unpredictable what such a situation would mean for humans and their societies.
The universe coming to rest in a tiny ball of zero motion.

(Or the Crystalline Entity, having eaten up everything, dying alone in a cold void.)
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Albert Tatlock
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Re: What is perfect?

Post by Albert Tatlock »

Alias wrote: The impossibility is predicated on the requirement that God be perfect
Exactly, but if I don't accept that God has to be perfect then your argument doesn't apply. I can easily conceive of a God that isn't perfect, the fact that I don't believe in him is purely a matter of chance. If I did believe in him your argument wouldn't work.
Steve3007
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Re: What is perfect?

Post by Steve3007 »

I suppose if you wanted to conceive of a god that isn't perfect you could do a lot worse than the old Roman and Greek gods. They certainly weren't perfect. They were, essentially, Coronation Street characters. Getting married, having secret affairs, confronting each other in the pub when they were found out. Very relatable.
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