Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

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Burning ghost
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Burning ghost » February 12th, 2018, 9:50 am

Spectrum -

Belindi has pointed out your major flaw. You're so invested in this you've started to dress your opinion as a universal truth.
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Spectrum
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Spectrum » February 13th, 2018, 4:17 am

Belindi wrote:
February 12th, 2018, 7:05 am
Spectrum wrote:
Islam never had a reformation because Islam cannot be reformed.
My Christian fundamentalist friends would say the same about Christianity that it cannot be reformed. Christian fundies have this in common with Islamic fundies: they are unable to place the holy texts within history.
Christian fundamentalists can claim whatever but they have no objective basis to be absolutely right.
From what I have read there are no verses to insist the words of God in the OT and NT are immutable.
In addition, the Bible has been processed through so many languages and as such there is some degree of problem in taking the Bible too literally.
What Christians rely upon are the divine principles as reflected in the Bible.

OTOH, Islam is very different.
Muslims claim the Quran exactly the same word by word as the message that was delivered to Muhammad via Angel Gabriel.
This is the objective basis for the pristine words from Allah to the Arabic Quran that is held in the hands of Muslim.
As such there is no room for any Muslim to change and reform the Quran and Islam.

While the true Muslims will strive to comply with whatever is in the Quran as their divine duty, the moderates will side-step and deflect some unpalatable verses like the wife beating verse 4:34 and other evil and violent verses.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.

Spectrum
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Spectrum » February 13th, 2018, 4:21 am

Burning ghost wrote:
February 12th, 2018, 9:50 am
Spectrum -
Belindi has pointed out your major flaw. You're so invested in this you've started to dress your opinion as a universal truth.
What flaw? note my reply to Belindi.

The fact is I made it a point to be well-versed with the subject matter and I do not simply make statements on Islam based on whims and impulses.
In most cases - 99%, I am confident I am well covered and able to substantiate and justify the points I made.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.

Belindi
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Belindi » February 13th, 2018, 4:48 am

Spectrum, you are right to raise concern about Islamic fundamentalists, and the authority of the Koran. You would be more use if you said how Islam might be reformed, and led into the modern world.

The way I favour is evolutionary. Muslim Britons are required to obey the law like everyone else.I don't know if Muslim Britons' slowness to integrate is due to ethnicity or the authority of the Koran. However whichever it is there is no draconian method outside of our laws to force the issue. The law is clear about faith schools for instance.

Burning ghost
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Burning ghost » February 13th, 2018, 7:15 am

Spectrum wrote:
February 13th, 2018, 4:21 am
Burning ghost wrote:
February 12th, 2018, 9:50 am
Spectrum -
Belindi has pointed out your major flaw. You're so invested in this you've started to dress your opinion as a universal truth.
What flaw? note my reply to Belindi.

The fact is I made it a point to be well-versed with the subject matter and I do not simply make statements on Islam based on whims and impulses.
In most cases - 99%, I am confident I am well covered and able to substantiate and justify the points I made.
You say Islam cannot be reformed. Just your opinion ... unless you have a time machine? And Belindi makes the telling point about Christianity being able to reform. The question is it possible for Islam to reform; or is it reasonable to expect a quick transition. The west has made steady progress we cannot just expect everyone to jump in line.
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Spectrum
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Spectrum » February 13th, 2018, 8:48 pm

Burning ghost wrote:
February 13th, 2018, 7:15 am
You say Islam cannot be reformed. Just your opinion ... unless you have a time machine? And Belindi makes the telling point about Christianity being able to reform. The question is it possible for Islam to reform; or is it reasonable to expect a quick transition. The west has made steady progress we cannot just expect everyone to jump in line.
Note I wrote this;
  • OTOH, Islam is very different.
    Muslims claim the Quran [is] exactly the same word by word as the message that was delivered to Muhammad via Angel Gabriel then between 610-632 AD.
    This is the objective basis for the pristine words from Allah to the Arabic Quran that is held in the hands of Muslim [at all times].
    As such there is no room for any Muslim to change and reform the Quran and Islam.
In principle there is no way for Islam per se to be reformed because no one can change the immutable words of Allah in the Quran's 6,236 verses.

The only possible reformation is for Muslims to change their own thinking and for that anything goes.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.

Burning ghost
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Burning ghost » February 14th, 2018, 2:37 am

I don't care won't you wrote previously when you end by saying it "cannot be reformed."

That is like me saying, "I think people are evil; not all people just most of them," then saying a few lines later, "All people are evil."

Do you not see that? If not look back over what you wrote and what Belindi quoted.

What you say above is "possible" but when you say "cannot" you are saying "impossible." They are synonyms.
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Belindi » February 14th, 2018, 4:18 am

Spectrum wrote:
The only possible reformation is for Muslims to change their own thinking and for that anything goes.
But anything does not go. Muslims can again question and interpret in the light of modern and historical developments.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/ijtihad

Or 'The Gates of Ijtihad'.

It's unlikely that the rationale of the basic Biblical (OT and NT) ethic will be discarded because that basic ethic is rational.

Spectrum
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Spectrum » February 14th, 2018, 4:19 am

Burning ghost wrote:
February 14th, 2018, 2:37 am
I don't care won't you wrote previously when you end by saying it "cannot be reformed."

That is like me saying, "I think people are evil; not all people just most of them," then saying a few lines later, "All people are evil."

Do you not see that? If not look back over what you wrote and what Belindi quoted.

What you say above is "possible" but when you say "cannot" you are saying "impossible." They are synonyms.
Not too sure of the fuss.

My point is:
Islam by its own declared inherent nature of immutability cannot be reformed.

Instead of referring to this or that, why don't you counter the above directly.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.

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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Belindi » February 14th, 2018, 6:13 am

Spectrum wrote:
Islam by its own declared inherent nature of immutability cannot be reformed.
Please see 'The Gates of Ijtihad'. These 'gates' that admitted free enquiry were closed at an indentifiable date in the past.

I have sorted my previous post in which I replied to the wrong name .You may read all about Islamic free enquiry in Britannica and Wikipedia.

Burning ghost
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Burning ghost » February 14th, 2018, 6:15 am

Spectrum -

If you wish to use the English language then except when I point out your contradiction. I am not interested in countering what you say because you've already stated it "cannot" be reform.

Simply don't say things like "possibly for certain" if you don't want me to butt in. It was a writing error on your part, and error which you've done little to nothing to clarify for either myself or Belindi.
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Dachshund » February 14th, 2018, 5:52 pm

Belindi wrote:
February 10th, 2018, 5:08 am
Spectrum wrote:
1. 20% of ALL humans are born with an active evil tendency - the evil prone.
2. If these evil prone people are exposed to ANY evil elements, they will be triggered to commit evil.
violence.
3. Islam [Q-uran as core] contains loads of evil elements.
4. Therefore Islam will trigger the evil prone Muslims to commit evil acts and violence.
1. No. All men are born with an " evil tendency" . I am rather with St Augustine on this that the baby human is an empty vessel and needs filling up with good stuff or else he may willy- nilly get filled up with bad stuff.

2. Defences against evil include reason and inborn human or mammalian kindness. No human is born lacking human or mammalian kindness although young children's understanding of how to employ this innate understanding has to be fostered.

3. The holy Book of Islam does indeed contain a lot of "evil elements". Maybe at the time and place of the Holy Prophet all of the Koran was considered to be the height of morality.

4.I fear that you are correct in this. However all holy books can exert immoral influence. The Koran's explicitness is a virtue, compared with the discursive OT as with the Koran we know exactly what we are dealing with. However just as Christians cherry pick the OT so Muslims can and do cherry pick the Koran as we know from the fact that the huge majority of Muslims are not jihadis .


Why the focus on the violence in the OT. It's been pointed out for you 1000x that the violence in the OT is circumscribed in being restricted to particular historical times and places- specific historical circumstances. I'm not apologising for this, what I am saying is that we are dealing with a potentially far more destructive and grievous scripture in the the Koran, because most of its many , (many) violent verses (109, I think) are OPEN-ENDED EXHORTATIONS to acts of evil ( cutting off fingers, heads ,other body parts, putting infidels and apostates to the sword or worse , waging bloody jihad, etc.)

The OT was merely a kind of introduction, a big "preamble" (if you like , a basic foundation and "curtain raiser"upon which the main event which was in terms of sacred Biblical scripture, the NT. The NT is Christianity's most vitally important, ultimate and concluding (eschatological) sacred text. The worst violence you will see from Jesus in the whole NT is a hissy fit ( of righteous anger)he threw when a group of disrespectful capitalist grubs set up shop in his temple one weekend and started trading in the filthy lucre. Otherwise, there is only one message that the NT has for humanity and that is the message of LOVE ( caritas/ agape) . Love your fellow man as you would yourself. Know that God is love, and Jesus has come to mankind in the name of God's love for humanity as its saviour. Try to be compassionate and charitable to those who are in need of help (the poor, the sick, the elderly, etc) when you come across them, and try not to be a selfish arsehole in this life. That's the NT in a nutshell.

Muhammed, Islam's so-called "Perfect (*AHEM*) Man" ,on the other hand, was a hard-core, murderous, bloodthirsty, frothing-at-the-mouth psychopath and warmonger! Full Stop.

PS: Oh, yeah, I forgot to add devious, duplicitous, sly, lying bastard!

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Hereandnow
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Hereandnow » February 14th, 2018, 9:06 pm

When, Dachshund, was the last time you made a burnt offering to Yahwey? Why bother with this nonsense: You're not a Christian, you just like to think about it dreamily.

The reason we need more Muslims, and Hindus and Buddhists is so we can have an interfaith religious amalgam rise out of the cultural and ideological synthesis, and one day, we will be rid of scripture based religion altogether and will finally be resolved on the nature of the true religion, the one true view: Philosophy.

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Greta
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Greta » February 15th, 2018, 12:21 am

Hereandnow wrote:
February 14th, 2018, 9:06 pm
When, Dachshund, was the last time you made a burnt offering to Yahwey?
He's apparently more keen on following the deity's brother, NohWeh :)

Spectrum
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Spectrum » February 15th, 2018, 2:39 am

Belindi wrote:
February 14th, 2018, 6:13 am
Spectrum wrote:
Islam by its own declared inherent nature of immutability cannot be reformed.
Please see 'The Gates of Ijtihad'. These 'gates' that admitted free enquiry were closed at an indentifiable date in the past.

I have sorted my previous post in which I replied to the wrong name .You may read all about Islamic free enquiry in Britannica and Wikipedia.
Ijtihad (Arabic: اجتهاد‎ ijtihād, lit. effort, physical or mental, expended in a particular activity)[1] is an Islamic legal term referring to independent reasoning[2] or the thorough exertion of a jurist's mental faculty in finding a solution to a legal question.
"Ijtihad" is a legal term not a Quranic term from Allah.
However 'Ijtihad' is used it cannot override 'bid‘ah' i.e.
In Islam, bid‘ah (Arabic: بدعة‎; English: innovation) refers to innovation in religious matters.[1] Linguistically the term means "innovation, novelty, heretical doctrine, heresy".

The Qur'anic verse:
  • "This day I have perfected your religion for you, completed my favor upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion."(Quran 5:4),
is considered by at least some Muslim to be against bid'ah in religion. The Sunnah has many more prohibitions against innovation in religion. -wiki
If the Quran verse 9:29;
  • 9:29 [Pickthall] Fight [Qatiloo] against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.
The Arabic "Qatiloo" has high aggression connotation.
If any Muslim obey the above command, i.e. fight and kill non-believers for reasons they believed is justified who can stop them? No one on Earth can stop them except Allah who never ever appear on Earth to do so. [since God is illusory and an impossibility]

But those Muslims who twist the above verse to something else more palatable, they are likely to commit 'bid'ah, i.e. reforming the meaning of the verse to something else.

Note there are thousands of verses that are negative and fatal to non-believers, any attempt to change them will likely be bid'ah.

This is what is meant by Islam from the immutable Quran cannot be reformed. Any attempt to reform is lightly to commit bid'ah and going against Allah original words and intention.

Islam and the Quran cannot be reformed.
Whatever reformation that is claimed by Muslims is actually reformation of the individual believers themselves to avoid the immutable evil and violent elements in the Quran. Muslims do not have any authority to change Allah's words and meaning.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.

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