Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

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baha
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by baha » July 10th, 2018, 10:25 pm

Greta wrote:
July 9th, 2018, 11:45 pm
baha wrote:
July 9th, 2018, 10:32 pm
westerns should rule the world and kill all mans beside western mans. and take away everything else. such an great people you are. coming from directly heavens.
Actually, I think you'll find that not all of us here are westerners but I take your point that some unfairly imperialist comments are being made here.

I personally find the largest division between people is not between cultures, races or religions but between extremism and moderation.

That is, extremists everywhere seem similar to each other - bloody annoying and sometimes dangerous. Meanwhile, moderates everywhere also share many commonalities, mostly the wish to lead a good life.

Extremists are aggressive and seek domination. In short, they are restless, they seek excitement and provoke unrest. By contrast, moderates everywhere are relatively calm and seek peace and goodwill rather than foment and conflict.
immigration ? its all rubbish. and do you think that americans are not Extremists ? agresssive and seek domination ? do you want to tell me that they are not seeking such thing ?

( amazing ) than you do not know anything at all. and who has given you the damn land ? it is already lying there. and you have stolen it from another party red indians.

now you are claiming mine and now allowing others. and this will go on as long as your government is alive.

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baha
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by baha » July 10th, 2018, 10:40 pm

and what is the value in argueing ? what you ( or anyone else ) has gained by it ? it is nothing but useless and waste of time.

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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Greta » July 11th, 2018, 7:25 pm

baha wrote:
July 10th, 2018, 10:25 pm
Greta wrote:
July 9th, 2018, 11:45 pm

Actually, I think you'll find that not all of us here are westerners but I take your point that some unfairly imperialist comments are being made here.

I personally find the largest division between people is not between cultures, races or religions but between extremism and moderation.

That is, extremists everywhere seem similar to each other - bloody annoying and sometimes dangerous. Meanwhile, moderates everywhere also share many commonalities, mostly the wish to lead a good life.

Extremists are aggressive and seek domination. In short, they are restless, they seek excitement and provoke unrest. By contrast, moderates everywhere are relatively calm and seek peace and goodwill rather than foment and conflict.
immigration ? its all rubbish. and do you think that americans are not Extremists ? agresssive and seek domination ? do you want to tell me that they are not seeking such thing ?

( amazing ) than you do not know anything at all. and who has given you the damn land ? it is already lying there. and you have stolen it from another party red indians.

now you are claiming mine and now allowing others. and this will go on as long as your government is alive.
It would help if you actually read my post before responding. Do you know that "moderates" and "extremists" are not race specific terms but general? Do you understand English at all or are you running text through a translator??

If your English comprehension is so poor then you need to check meaning before firing off at people. What you complained about has NOTHING whatsoever to do with my posting. NOTHING. Get it??

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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Spectrum » July 11th, 2018, 10:49 pm

Belindi wrote:
July 10th, 2018, 10:13 am
Spectrum wrote:
Just like the Nazis and other ideologies there is no need for a significant proportion of believers to be immoderate to generate terrible evils.
What is effective is only a small numbers of hardcore believers influencing the average believers to get the evil machine going. Note even if a very realistic 1% of hardcore Islamists is evil prone, it is 15 million of them around the world.
True, it takes agitators to enrage moderate believers. However agitators are not enough to enrage moderates. Moderates also have to be amenable to the agitators who in order to succeed must engage with a field that is already sown with discontent.
It has happened in many occasions where discontent [poverty, political oppression, etc.] is the primary reason but in the case religion, especially Islam, the main reason is the trigger of an existential threat [inherently dormant] within the psyche of the moderates.

In this case, the moderates [often indifferent to religious mandates] are reminded of the threat of Hell if they do not obey the commands of God and his messengers.
Problem is the commands of God [especially Allah] include loads of evil laden verses that include sanctioning the killing of non-Muslims and other evil acts.

When the existential threat within a moderate Muslims [rich, poor, peaceful or violent] is triggered [subconsciously by continual brainwashing] many will be zealous in carry out Allah's commands to commit those commanded evil acts upon non-Muslims. Various secular reasons are often given but these are only secondary to the existential threat of going to hell instead of eternal life in heaven.

The people of I.S.I.S had proclaimed; according to our books we will kill you because you are a disbeliever and other reasons are secondary.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-new ... ns-8533563
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Spectrum » July 11th, 2018, 10:59 pm

Iapetus wrote:
July 10th, 2018, 5:36 am
Reply to Spectrum:

Note the terrible evils by SOME evil prone Muslims are not confined to the evils acts of extremists but cover the full range of all sorts of evils by these 'SOME' evil prone Muslims.


I think this encapsulates your bigotry quite nicely.

I, personally, dislike the use of the term, ‘evil’ for a number of reasons which I won’t go into now. I accept, however, that many people use it as a form of shorthand for motives and actions which need to be strongly resisted. I have no problem with this, as long as they are prepared to explain and develop the reasons for such resistance.

There are, however, dangers associated with over-use of such terms. As an example, there is a ‘pro-life’ poster on abortion issues who seems incapable of addressing those who advocate abortion in certain circumstances without adding the adjective, ‘murderous’. It is not enough to simplify the argument into a single word; ‘abortionist’, which is bad enough. She has to add ‘murderous’ in front. Almost every time. Instead of dealing directly with the arguments, she has made a pre-judgement. In a discussion on relative positions with regard to the issue, she has declared that her mind is made up regardless. Abortionists are murderers. She is prejudiced.

As, it seems to me, are you with the term, ‘evil-prone’. You use it so frequently that it is difficult to discern any real meaning. Thus we end up with your sentence above. It is very confusing on a number of levels. It appears that you are trying to separate out some muslims from others with a big, capital-lettered SOME. I have to assume that you are trying to separate out ‘Muslims’ from ‘evil prone Muslims’ as a defence against accusations of bigotry but it may be that you want to separate some ‘evil prone Muslims’ from other ‘evil prone Muslims’. If it is the first case, then I have no idea about what basis you are using to define them as ‘evil prone’. Is it adherence to the Quran? If so, then what distinguishes them from other Muslims? This is a very significant question if we want to instigate border controls but it is certainly not resolved by repeated reference to ‘evil prone’. What is even more confusing is that you don’t appear to be refering simply to the ‘evil acts of extremists’. You include also the “full range of all sorts of evils”. What on earth do you mean by this? What on earth could you mean, if you you not refering the the evil acts of extremists? This sounds like bigotry. After all, the ‘evil prone Muslims’ are not self-identifying. Are you talking about thought crime? Thinking bad things?

You quoted an extract from the Stanford Encyclopaedia about the use of the term, ‘evil’. It was, by the way, an unattributed essay. You declined to mention the sections which outlined problems with use of the term. You cherry-picked.

Moreover, ‘evil-prone’ could be applied to any group. I am sure that we could address the problem of ‘evil-prone quiltmakers’. The difficulty here would be in associating the activity of quiltmaking with motivations and actions of evil. The quiltmaking may turn out to be quite incidental. I know that you have stated, “we must differentiate the ideology from the people”, but that is precisely what you seem incapable of doing. You have determined that “Islam is inherently evil” – an opinion, not a demonstrable fact. This seems to be why you are so free with adding ‘evil prone’ to its followers even though you have admitted, “even now the majority of Muslims do not take their religion seriously”. Could that statement not be applied equally to followers of all other religions?

The really sad thing about all this is that there is an argument to be had. Religious fundamentalism is a real issue in the world today. You cloud this argument by your confusion of vague opinion with facts and of unreasoned prejudice with objectiveness.
You are making too much noise [e.g. evil prone quiltmakers??] re the issue on the basis your views are based ignorance of the relevant factors, e.g.
  • 1. Human nature and its inherent evil tendency,
    2. The history of violence by Islamists since 1,400 till today,
    3. Ignorant of what is in the texts of the Quran,
    4. The ongoing research relating to the term 'evil'.
    5. Many other fields of knowledge re basic neuroscience, neuropsychology, etc.
Btw, as an essential for discussion I have defined 'evil' for my purpose.

I will not respond to your 'noises' till your contents are reasonably justified.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.

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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by baha » July 11th, 2018, 11:16 pm

Spectrum wrote:
July 11th, 2018, 10:59 pm
  • 1. Human nature and its inherent evil tendency,
    2. The history of violence by Islamists since 1,400 till today,
    3. Ignorant of what is in the texts of the Quran,
    4. The ongoing research relating to the term 'evil'.
    5. Many other fields of knowledge re basic neuroscience, neuropsychology, etc.
Btw, as an essential for discussion I have defined 'evil' for my purpose.

I will not respond to your 'noises' till your contents are reasonably justified.
now just see the fun that who is going to teach others about what is evil and what is not evil ? and if we check your history. than we will find that entire british and USA is pack of the damn theives.

and who has given you the damn america ? it is stolen from another party. and now you are going to teach others after killing all red indian males to others that what is good and what is evil ? ( waahaa ) lovely.

but i piss on your teaching. now theif is going to teach others what is evil ? ( waahaa ) indeed it seems that you have traced all of your fathers, fathers, fathers, father to the damn ape ( or say common ancestors which was shared with moneys ) or it seems you really have gone to moon now.

what an advancement. ( amazing )

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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Greta » July 11th, 2018, 11:36 pm

baha wrote:
July 10th, 2018, 10:40 pm
and what is the value in argueing ? what you ( or anyone else ) has gained by it ? it is nothing but useless and waste of time.
We are still waiting for you to do something other than argue.

You even argued with me for agreeing with you!

If you believe there is no value in arguing you might want to try DISCUSSING issues rather than arguing. People will take you more seriously too.

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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Spectrum » July 12th, 2018, 12:51 am

Greta wrote:
July 11th, 2018, 11:36 pm
baha wrote:
July 10th, 2018, 10:40 pm
and what is the value in argueing ? what you ( or anyone else ) has gained by it ? it is nothing but useless and waste of time.
We are still waiting for you to do something other than argue.

You even argued with me for agreeing with you!

If you believe there is no value in arguing you might want to try DISCUSSING issues rather than arguing. People will take you more seriously too.
Looks like the best action for you is to do what you gotta do with such an uncultured poster.
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Belindi » July 12th, 2018, 2:56 am

Spectrum wrote:
In this case,(Islam, Muslims, my brackets )the moderates [often indifferent to religious mandates] are reminded of the threat of Hell if they do not obey the commands of God and his messengers.
Problem is the commands of God [especially Allah] include loads of evil laden verses that include sanctioning the killing of non-Muslims and other evil acts.
"The commands of God" are ideology unless accompanied by reason , judgement, and facts in the case of religions especially historical facts.

Your remarks apply not only Muslims but to every man who hears and may learn some ideology.The danger of ideology devoid of facts is everywhere a danger not only to moderate Muslims. The danger of ideology sans facts manifested in Stalinism, Macarthyism, racism, the Inquisition, troubles in Northern Ireland, Burma, Trumpism, witch trials, Israeli aggression to Arabs, and so on and so on.

You, Spectrum, deal in facts but your facts so far are insufficient.You are of course right about the pugilistic verses in the Koran however there is a lot more fact than that to take into account.

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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Belindi » July 12th, 2018, 3:01 am

baha wrote:
July 10th, 2018, 10:40 pm
and what is the value in argueing ? what you ( or anyone else ) has gained by it ? it is nothing but useless and waste of time.
Exchanging ideas, forming and retracting opinions, gaining inspiration, learning from others, voicing and thereby crystallising one's own ideas , entertainment, and even bargaining, are all included in the value of "arguing".

By the way, some people use the word 'arguing' to mean quarrelling. I never use the good word 'arguing' to mean quarrelling. BaHa you should keep on arguing. You have some good ideas such as that nations that claim the moral high ground have grotty past histories.

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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Spectrum » July 12th, 2018, 3:09 am

Belindi wrote:
July 12th, 2018, 2:56 am
Spectrum wrote:
In this case,(Islam, Muslims, my brackets )the moderates [often indifferent to religious mandates] are reminded of the threat of Hell if they do not obey the commands of God and his messengers.
Problem is the commands of God [especially Allah] include loads of evil laden verses that include sanctioning the killing of non-Muslims and other evil acts.
"The commands of God" are ideology unless accompanied by reason , judgement, and facts in the case of religions especially historical facts.

Your remarks apply not only Muslims but to every man who hears and may learn some ideology.The danger of ideology devoid of facts is everywhere a danger not only to moderate Muslims. The danger of ideology sans facts manifested in Stalinism, Macarthyism, racism, the Inquisition, troubles in Northern Ireland, Burma, Trumpism, witch trials, Israeli aggression to Arabs, and so on and so on.

You, Spectrum, deal in facts but your facts so far are insufficient.You are of course right about the pugilistic verses in the Koran however there is a lot more fact than that to take into account.
I agree my remarks apply elsewhere but I was [had to] sticking to the OP, i.e. re Muslims.

I am fastidious with facts and provide as much relevant facts or justified knowledge to support my point.

I have spoken all the relevant facts of evils and violence committed by SOME Islamists throughout the 1400 history of Islam.
Besides the evil laden verses in the Quran, I have discussed the relevant human nature in relation to the issue, e.g. psychology, neurosciences, anthropology, social, political, etc.

Tell me what facts I have missed out and I will fill them in or perhaps you are merely hand waving the point that I provided insufficient facts.
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Belindi » July 12th, 2018, 3:22 am

Spectrum the facts you have missed out are, I quote myself
Stalinism, Macarthyism, racism, the Inquisition, troubles in Northern Ireland, Burma, Trumpism, witch trials, Israeli aggression to Arabs, and so on and so on.
Why do you accuse only Muslims of unreasoned ideology? Unreasoned ideology of whatever name, colour, political pole, or religion, is dangerous, false, a lie, and an insult to what human intelligence is capable of.

You fight the wrong foe. Islam is no better and no worse than any other fighting ideology. You should therefor target ignorance not the fighting verses in the Koran. It is ignorant to claim that those fighting verses apply to modern times. It's ignorance that should be dealt with not Muslims and Islam.

Yes, some Muslims are ignorant in that way. So deal with the ignorance. Punishing Muslims won't deal with ignorance.

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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Spectrum » July 12th, 2018, 5:50 am

Belindi wrote:
July 12th, 2018, 3:22 am
Spectrum the facts you have missed out are, I quote myself
Stalinism, Macarthyism, racism, the Inquisition, troubles in Northern Ireland, Burma, Trumpism, witch trials, Israeli aggression to Arabs, and so on and so on.
Why do you accuse only Muslims of unreasoned ideology? Unreasoned ideology of whatever name, colour, political pole, or religion, is dangerous, false, a lie, and an insult to what human intelligence is capable of.

You fight the wrong foe. Islam is no better and no worse than any other fighting ideology. You should therefor target ignorance not the fighting verses in the Koran. It is ignorant to claim that those fighting verses apply to modern times. It's ignorance that should be dealt with not Muslims and Islam.

Yes, some Muslims are ignorant in that way. So deal with the ignorance. Punishing Muslims won't deal with ignorance.
Surprise you did not read my first sentence related to why I did not refer to other facts??

Here again;
I agree my remarks apply elsewhere but I was [had to] sticking to the OP, i.e. re Muslims.
Just in case;
I agree my remarks apply elsewhere but I was [had to] sticking to the OP, i.e. re Muslims [only].
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Belindi » July 12th, 2018, 6:19 am

Spectrum wrote:
Surprise you did not read my first sentence related to why I did not refer to other facts??

Here again;
I agree my remarks apply elsewhere but I was [had to] sticking to the OP, i.e. re Muslims.
Just in case;
I agree my remarks apply elsewhere but I was [had to] sticking to the OP, i.e. re Muslims [only].
Sorry. I should have explained exactly why the cause of some Muslims' truculence has the same cause as that of Christians, others, and even Buddhists. The cause of immoderate ideological behaviour , including immoderate Muslims , is ideology itself when it's divorced from facts. True, pugilistic verses in holy texts legitimate immoderate behaviour, but the actual cause of such behaviour is ignorance of facts which moderate the ideology in question.

You attribute immoderate Muslim behaviour solely to verses in the Koran and it blinkers your vision, because you have mistaken the cause. One frame of mind can cause the same behaviour among diverse peoples. You need to look at diverse peoples to understand the cause of Muslims behaving badly.

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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Iapetus » July 12th, 2018, 6:49 am

Reply to Spectrum:
I'll address this critical points first and the others later;
You have written eight posts since then but you have still not got round to doing what you said you would do. This is because you are unable to do so; my criticisms were justified.

I will not respond to your 'noises' till your contents are reasonably justified.


I did exactly what you asked. I gave you a line-by-line breakdown with numerous examples of your incredibly poor use of ‘facts’ and of your prejudice and bigotry in addressing Muslims. You try to dislmiss this as ‘noise’ because it’s all you can do. It is a well-recognised strategy when somebody is unable to address an argument that they resort either to insults or to dismissals. It shows up your inadequacies in this discussion.

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