Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

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Spectrum
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Spectrum » July 18th, 2018, 12:19 am

Belindi wrote:
July 17th, 2018, 7:03 am
Spectrum wrote:
You are dreaming, re the bolded, where in the Quran [Allah's words] are the overall overarching verses to support your point, Allah is merciful to non-Muslims?
I understand that you are reading Koranic fighting talk as if it applies for all time and all history.I believe that some Muslims are also literalists.

Muhammad was a great leader of his time for whom politics, religious rituals, and social welfare were bound together in the proper religious life. The mercy of Allah is that Allah gave the Koran to Muhammad so dictating the right way to live and believe. Beyond the literal meaning is the intention of Allah to guide and direct. The manner by which mercy is expressed changes according to circumstances. What's wrong with literalists like yourself and also Muslim literalists is that you and they cannot understand that the theme of mercy extends over and above historical circumstances.

You write " where in the Quran". You would not have asked that question if you had understood that a theme underlies all the particular bits and pieces.
You have to read the Quran thoroughly to understand its central theme.
How can your views be reliable and credible if you have NOT read the Quran thoroughly and understood [not necessary agree] it main theme?

I have read and researched the Quran thoroughly.
There is the historical factor but what is critical are the ETERNAL generic divine principles/doctrines from ALLAH that override all other factors, i.e. historical, literally, social, etc.

I don't see you are aware of the above.

I have provided a 'clue' i.e. 61% of the verses contain evil elements that condemned non-Muslims in the most derogatory and evil manner. The other I mentioned is the Quran is worst than the Main Kempf in terms of anti-Jews. There are many more elements that put the non-Muslims in the worst derogatory position.

I have done a thorough analysis and organize all the 6236 verses of the Quran into one central theme and it is inherently evil. This central theme of evil is supported with glaring evidence by the terrible evils and violence committed by SOME evil prone Muslims.

Note this First Chapter of the Quran;
  • 1. In the Name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.

    2. All the praises and thanks be to Allah, the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns and all that exists).

    3. The Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.

    4. The Only Owner (and the Only Ruling Judge) of the Day of Recompense (i.e. the Day of Resurrection)

    5. You (Alone) we worship, and You (Alone) we ask for help (for each and everything).

    6. Guide us to the Straight Way

    7. The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace, not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger (such as the Jews), nor of those who went astray (such as the Christians).
https://www.noblequran.com/translation/
This Quran is published by the Saudi Government and all Muslims [the most pious] who attend the Pilgrimage in Mecca are given a copy.

The first chapter of the Quran is repeated 18 times a day during Muslim prayers.
Note verse 1:7 there is already implanted hatred of Jews & Christians and Muslims are brainwashed on a daily basis 5 times a day to hate Jews and Christians at the least subconsciously.

In verse 1:7, the phrase (such as the Jews) and (such as the Christians) are in brackets, i.e. not from the original Quran.
However most the Muslim clerics will expound 1:7 where those who angered Allah the most are the Jews and Christians are astrayed [the worst sin in the Quran]. They will provide all the supporting verses from elsewhere in the Quran and Ahadiths. These points of hatred with others in the Quran are triggered into real evil acts against Jews and Christians and the evidence worldwide is so glaring.

Read Chapter 1 in the same Quran with supporting footnotes.
http://islamtomorrow.com/downloads/Quran_Khan.pdf

Note a true Muslim who had entered into a covenant/contract has no choice but to carry out his obligated and contracted promise as a divine duty which is commanded in the Quran, i.e. the hatred for non-Muslims and kill them where applicable. If they do not do what is promised they will go to Hell.

This Chapter 1 - Al Fatihah extol the qualified and conditional mercifulness and compassion of Allah but on the side, is filled with hate for the non-Muslims, in this case the Jews and Christians [2 billion]. This is also the obvious clue to the central theme of the Quran and Islam.
If you read on to Chapter 2, the world of evil in Islam will open before your eyes.

Don't be so blind and insult your own intelligence, read the Quran thoroughly before you make any apology for Islam per se as benign.
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Spectrum
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Spectrum » July 18th, 2018, 12:25 am

Dachshund wrote:
July 17th, 2018, 9:16 am
Belindi wrote:
July 17th, 2018, 5:01 am
Those Muslims who have learned only a pugilistic IDEOLOGY and interpretation these people are indeed a threat to others and should be excluded.
I have highlighted your use of the word ideology, Belindi, because, I think that there is a pressing need right now for the West to investigate to what extent Islam is rightly categorised as a religion, as opposed to a (violent) totalitarian political ideology. I will use the example of the United States to explain the points I wish to make.

At present in the US, Islam ....
Very good points and I agree.

I believe the international community must read, analyze and debate on the true nature, theme and ethos of Islam as represented in the Quran. If the Ahadith and Sira are taken into account, it would be much worst.

In addition to the US [& other countries], the United Nation should start a 'Royal' Commission to research on the Quran thoroughly. I believe I can contribute greatly on this.
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Spectrum » July 18th, 2018, 12:30 am

Steve3007 wrote:
July 17th, 2018, 10:37 am
Dachshund wrote:Is it JUST to tolerate the teaching that Muslims are superior human being to persons who are non- Muslims and that men are superior to women? ...
Well, IS IT, Belindi ??!!
Belindi, I'd advise you to consider the above list of questions, including the one I've quoted here, in the context of views like these:
..
This hate-filled odious character must not be allowed to go through these occasional periods of masquerading as a thinking man who is amenable to rational argument.
This is a below the belt attack.

I disagree with the above points if they are what they are as posted.

However you cannot mixed a person's personal subjective views with what is the facts of the evil elements within Islam plus the suggestions to deal with those facts that are evil.
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Steve3007 » July 18th, 2018, 4:16 am

Spectrum wrote:This is a below the belt attack.
In the context of these kinds of discussions, a below-the-best attack would be one which misrepresents what a person has said or ignores what they've said and simply attacks them. Perhaps questioning their parentage or something. What I did was to simply quote things that Dachshund has said in the past (look them up to see the context) to illustrate one aspect of his hypocrisy. Given the views expressed in those quotes I think "hate-filled" is a reasonable description.

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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Belindi » July 18th, 2018, 4:18 am

I did again read most of the first sura and again it was very boring. Fortunately successive suras become shorter and shorter. I guess that Muslims also would find it boring except for the fact that (I guess)Muslims use the Koran not like we use philosophy, or the rule book of cricket, but as a ritualistic recitation much as some Christians use The Lord's Prayer, or as a Catholic crosses herself before embarking on some enterprise she assumes may be risky.

As regards the rule book of cricket there are unwritten rules which nice decent players observe. Likewise I guess that wise imams preach the unwritten themes of Islam.

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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Spectrum » July 18th, 2018, 6:52 am

Belindi wrote:
July 18th, 2018, 4:18 am
I did again read most of the first sura and again it was very boring. Fortunately successive suras become shorter and shorter. I guess that Muslims also would find it boring except for the fact that (I guess)Muslims use the Koran not like we use philosophy, or the rule book of cricket, but as a ritualistic recitation much as some Christians use The Lord's Prayer, or as a Catholic crosses herself before embarking on some enterprise she assumes may be risky.
Nah... how can the first Sura be boring [that is irresponsible] when in 1:7 Allah leads Muslims call out to hate the Jews and Christians who had angered [offended] Allah and strayed from Islam.
This should be something alarming to any average person with a normal moral compass to understand Islam is evil.
  • 1:6. Guide us to the Straight Way
    1:7. The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace, NOT (the way) of those who earned Your Anger (such as the Jews), nor of those who went astray (such as the Christians).
Where did you get the idea the successive sura are shorter and shorter.
Chapter 1 is one of the shortest sura while chapter 2 contain 286 verses and the next 10 chapters contain more than 100 verses.

After a few introductory verses Chapter 2 came in with a torrent of condemnation of non-believers, note and read them;
Quran Chapter 2 wrote:6. Verily, those who disbelieve, it is the same to them whether you (O Muhammad Peace be upon him ) warn them or do not warn them, they will not believe.

7. Allah has set a seal on their hearts and on their hearings, (i.e. they are closed from accepting Allah's Guidance), and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be a great torment.

8. And of mankind, there are some (hypocrites) who say: "We believe in Allah and the Last Day" while in fact they believe not.

9. They (think to) deceive Allah and those who believe, while they only deceive themselves, and perceive (it) not!

10. In their hearts is a disease (of doubt and hypocrisy) and Allah has increased their disease. A painful torment is theirs because they used to tell lies.

11. And when it is said to them: "Make not mischief on the earth," they say: "We are only peacemakers."

12. Verily! They are the ones who make mischief, but they perceive not.

13. And when it is said to them (hypocrites): "Believe as the people (followers of Muhammad Peace be upon him , Al-Ansar and Al-Muhajirun) have believed," they say: "Shall we believe as the fools have believed?" Verily, they are the fools, but they know not.

14. And when they meet those who believe, they say: "We believe," but when they are alone with their Shayatin (devils - polytheists, hypocrites, etc.), they say: "Truly, we are with you; verily, we were but mocking."

15. Allah mocks at them and gives them increase in their wrong-doings to wander blindly.

16. These are they who have purchased error for guidance, so their commerce was profitless. And they were not guided.

17. Their likeness is as the likeness of one who kindled a fire; then, when it lighted all around him, Allah took away their light and left them in darkness. (So) they could not see.

18. They [non-believers] are deaf, dumb, and blind, so they return not (to the Right Path).

19. Or like a rainstorm from the sky, wherein is darkness, thunder, and lightning. They thrust their fingers in their ears to keep out the stunning thunderclap for fear of death. But Allah ever encompasses the disbelievers (i.e. Allah will gather them all together).

20. The lightning almost snatches away their sight, whenever it flashes for them, they walk therein, and when darkness covers them, they stand still. And if Allah willed, He could have taken away their hearing and their sight. Certainly, Allah has power over all things.
Verse 1:7 and Chapter 2, 3 .. set the theme of an evil ethos when Muslims read the common Quran.
The more proper theme of evil can be obtained by reading the verses chronologically.
The real theme of evil is exposed by reading the Quran hermeneutically.

Note all Muslims have entered into a covenant/CONTRACT where Allah promised them eternal life in paradise and a threat of Hell if they do not comply with the terms of Allah in the Quran.
Since the Quran is loaded with hate and commands that condone the killing of non-Muslims [extra merit] a true Muslims have no choice but to comply with the commands of Allah which end with evil acts on non-Muslims. Note the willingness of Abraham to kill his son as a divine duty to Allah. In real life we have the suicide bombers and all sort of Muslim killers.

Most of the moderate Muslims would 'pretend' to overlook the hate and kill commands since their human values prevail, but at least 20%* of Muslims are willing to go all the way to comply with Allah's commands in the Quran.
*20% is a conservation approximation, polls after polls have indicated those willing to obey Allah's command unconditionally is more than 20%.
As regards the rule book of cricket there are unwritten rules which nice decent players observe. Likewise I guess that wise imams preach the unwritten themes of Islam.
The Game of Heaven and Hell is way off different from a game of cricket!

How many wise imans [% to all imans worldwide] are there who dare to override the immutable words and commands of God. In reality there are not many and most practice tagiyya [their version of justified lying] when speaking favorably in public but in reality will act as true Muslims when the situation arise. They have to, or else is burning Hell for them.

Many imans and ordinary Muslims who fortunately matured as emancipated normal human beings with an average moral compass will just leave Islam as they realized immutable Islam with loads of evil elements cannot be reformed.
e.g.
Bengali lawyer and scholar Mufassil Islam has left Islam, courageously describing his former religion as a mafia cult of death. This is significant, as Mufassil is well-versed in Islam and he used to actively defend it.

After publicly leaving Islam with the video at the start of this post, Mufassil published this plea for people to become emancipated human beings.
https://www.michaelnugent.com/2016/04/1 ... sil-islam/
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Belindi » July 18th, 2018, 1:36 pm

Spectrum wrote:
Where did you get the idea the successive sura are shorter and shorter.
A quick scan with sporadic reading before I was too bored to continue. I meant the second sura, was the longest, not the first one.

I am glad for you if you actually enjoy reading the Koran. I read that it sounds very pleasing when it is spoken in the original Arabic.

You again reiterate that Islam is evil. Apart from your opinion being a caricature of Islam, you have ignored what I told you about how the Koran is a devotional work, and not a work of history, science,entertainment, or philosophy. Devotional literature is used to generate devotional mood which is an aesthetic not a cognitive experience.

True, some modern political leaders and agitators have politicised Islam and the Koran.

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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Spectrum » July 18th, 2018, 10:27 pm

Belindi wrote:
July 18th, 2018, 1:36 pm
Spectrum wrote:
Where did you get the idea the successive sura are shorter and shorter.
A quick scan with sporadic reading before I was too bored to continue. I meant the second sura, was the longest, not the first one.

I am glad for you if you actually enjoy reading the Koran. I read that it sounds very pleasing when it is spoken in the original Arabic.

You again reiterate that Islam is evil. Apart from your opinion being a caricature of Islam, you have ignored what I told you about how the Koran is a devotional work, and not a work of history, science,entertainment, or philosophy. Devotional literature is used to generate devotional mood which is an aesthetic not a cognitive experience.

True, some modern political leaders and agitators have politicised Islam and the Koran.
The content and essence of what is written is most critical not how it sound when it is read or with superficial feelings of devotion imposed on it.

An innocent chap can borrow the tunes of hymns like 'Jerusalem' and the likes to sing or recite with lyrics from Main Kempf and it will sound pleasing, invoke devotional feelings and will be inspirational without the reciter understanding the real meaning of the lyrics.

That is what happened with Muslims reading the Quran in Arabic with hymn-liked devotional tones but do not have a clue of the evil laden lyrics they are reciting in Arabic.

I have not missed or blindly ignored your point re the devotional element re the Quran.

But note, it is precisely this devotional aspect that is the most dangerous.
Devotional in the Quran case is related to the fear of mortality to being promised salvation of an eternal life in paradise and to avoid terrible burning hell.
While the majority may be devotional on a superficial basis without much reference to the evil laden texts written in the Quran, a certain percentile [conservatively 20%] seek the addition security of going to paradise by obeying Allah words to the letter.

The serious danger with Islam is, 20% mean a potential pool of 300 million :shock: :shock: devotional evil prone Muslims who are serious in complying fully with the terms of the contract they sign with Allah and his promise of eternal life in paradise.
I have argued the Quran in fact contain loads of evil laden elements that inspire the devotional evil prone Muslims to act on them as a divine duty to please Allah.
This is manifested in the reality [glaringly evident] of the terrible evils and violence committed by those evil prone true Muslims. One notable example is this,
Image

The above evil matter is so serious to humanity yet you want* to ignore it and divert the attention of others from it.
* It is more like you are cowered by the Islamic strategy of terror to ignore it, else it is painful to be mindful of threat of terrors from evil prone Muslims. This is a varied degree of the Stockholm Syndrome whilst you are caught within this inescapable worldwide bubble of Muslim terror threat.
True, some modern political leaders and agitators have politicised Islam and the Koran.
The political leaders are not abusing the Quran. The main theme of the Quran is political [90%] with very strong evil ideology [worst than Nazism] and the religious aspect is secondary and minimal. Thus, even if the Quran & Islam is within a religious environment, most the clergy will be political animals in line with the dominant political theme of Islam.
But because the Quran is inherently political, the political leaders of the day will definitely take advantage where possible to use the religion to control the masses.

The drive of most Muslims is 90% religious and devotional and 10% political, so there is a mismatch.
In this case, Islam should not be accepted as a mainstream religion but should be labelled as a political ideology with some elements of religions.

At present, Islam is disguising itself as a mainstream religion to take advantage of the general assumption that all religions are peace, obtain tax exemption, while at the same time they are attempting a wishful-thought in strategizing to dominate the world as commanded in the Quran. It is a foolish quest but the reality is Islam [via a critical minority and evil laden verses] is leaving trail of evil and violence all over the world as it has been doing since 1400 years ago and will continue to do so in the future [most likely the next few hours -check the stats in the TROP link above]
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Belindi » July 19th, 2018, 5:59 am

Dachshund wrote:
I have highlighted your use of the word ideology, Belindi, because, I think that there is a pressing need right now for the West to investigate to what extent Islam is rightly categorised as a religion, as opposed to a (violent) totalitarian political ideology. I will use the example of the United States to explain the points I wish to make.

At present in the US, Islam is defined as a religion; this means that the First Amendment of the American Constitution prevents Congress from making any law that would prohibit Muslims in the United States from freely exercising their right to practice Islam.The First Amendment protects freedom of religion within certain bounds ( for instance, the individual liberty to practice a given religion must be balanced by a consideration for the welfare of society as a whole), but to date there is still no explicit Constitutional definition of what defines a religion for this purpose.

the First Amendment of the American Constitution prevents Congress from making any law that would prohibit Muslims in the United States from freely exercising their right to practice Islam.
#

The practice of Islam is devotional not political. Literal interpretations of ancient texts are often wrong because literal interpretations like yours and Spectrum's don't read the texts as historical sources of which the particulars matter less than the themes. Literalists of any colour simply cannot read as more sophisticated readers read.

I guess that you, Dachshund and Spectrum too, were brought up in families and institutions where Christianity was taught to you as a cognitively valid system. By contrast Islam and Judaism traditionally and still normally are taught as practices that directly improve the souls of practitioners and of which the cognitive element matters less than it does for Christians.

At best Dachshund and Spectrum are tilting at windmills.

Spectrum wrote:


In addition to the US [& other countries], the United Nation should start a 'Royal' Commission to research on the Quran thoroughly. I believe I can contribute greatly on this.
Of course you could ! You could act as a stand by in case the United Nations lost all of their copies of the Book.

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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Spectrum » July 20th, 2018, 11:14 pm

Belindi wrote:
July 19th, 2018, 5:59 am

I guess that you, Dachshund and Spectrum too, were brought up in families and institutions where Christianity was taught to you as a cognitively valid system. By contrast Islam and Judaism traditionally and still normally are taught as practices that directly improve the souls of practitioners and of which the cognitive element matters less than it does for Christians.
Nope, my background is Eastern religion, i.e. Buddhism. Taoism & Hinduism which promote world peace through compassion, kindness and empathy.
It is so obvious Islam [inherently evil] is antithetic the ethos of these Eastern religions and philosophies.
Therefore humanity must critique the evil ethos inherent in Islam proper.
Your blindness apologist views is supporting the inherent evil ethos from Islam.


At best Dachshund and Spectrum are tilting at windmills.

Spectrum wrote:
In addition to the US [& other countries], the United Nation should start a 'Royal' Commission to research on the Quran thoroughly. I believe I can contribute greatly on this.
Of course you could ! You could act as a stand by in case the United Nations lost all of their copies of the Book.
You seem to running out of wiser and rational arguments which is needed on a worldwide basis to expose the inherent evil within Islam the ideology.
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Greta » July 20th, 2018, 11:32 pm

Spectrum wrote:
July 20th, 2018, 11:14 pm
Nope, my background is Eastern religion, i.e. Buddhism. Taoism & Hinduism which promote world peace through compassion, kindness and empathy.
It is so obvious Islam [inherently evil] is antithetic the ethos of these Eastern religions and philosophies.
Therefore humanity must critique the evil ethos inherent in Islam proper.
I think you might have already done that a couple of times, Spec.

How many times must it be said? Until Islam retreats back to its box? Does this mean we can expect years more of you saying more of less the same thing over and over?

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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Spectrum » July 21st, 2018, 1:28 am

Greta wrote:
July 20th, 2018, 11:32 pm
Spectrum wrote:
July 20th, 2018, 11:14 pm
Nope, my background is Eastern religion, i.e. Buddhism. Taoism & Hinduism which promote world peace through compassion, kindness and empathy.
It is so obvious Islam [inherently evil] is antithetic the ethos of these Eastern religions and philosophies.
Therefore humanity must critique the evil ethos inherent in Islam proper.
I think you might have already done that a couple of times, Spec.

How many times must it be said? Until Islam retreats back to its box? Does this mean we can expect years more of you saying more of less the same thing over and over?
Note what happened when the world was silent [no serious actions taken] with Hitler.
Islam is more subtle so we have to persist with it.
I have spent 3 years full time researching the Quran.
My point of repeating the same thing is to keep my mind fresh with the information of Islam [actually it is getting rusty] after I had paused a bit due to some 'apparent' threats from Muslims.

I suggest you think about it re why you are so concern on my postings re Islam. I believe there are some subtle psychology being triggered with the success of Islam's inherent strategy to subdue the minds of non-Muslims through terror and violence.

Note I am not as one track mind as you may have thought.
I am also into serious postings on Heidegger [the greatest philosopher of the 20th century] and Kant [the greatest philosopher of all times].
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Spectrum » July 21st, 2018, 1:32 am

Greta wrote:
July 20th, 2018, 11:32 pm
Spectrum wrote:
July 20th, 2018, 11:14 pm
Nope, my background is Eastern religion, i.e. Buddhism. Taoism & Hinduism which promote world peace through compassion, kindness and empathy.
It is so obvious Islam [inherently evil] is antithetic the ethos of these Eastern religions and philosophies.
Therefore humanity must critique the evil ethos inherent in Islam proper.
I think you might have already done that a couple of times, Spec.

How many times must it be said? Until Islam retreats back to its box? Does this mean we can expect years more of you saying more of less the same thing over and over?
Another point;
Despite the number of times I have posted re my foundation, note this error of not reading what I have said many times;
I guess that you, Dachshund and Spectrum too, were brought up in families and institutions where Christianity was taught to you as a cognitively valid system.
That is why I have to repeat my basis.
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Belindi » July 21st, 2018, 4:23 am

Spectrum, when I condense your thesis to essentials it is about how Islam's holy texts are divisive if read literally. Also that despite that most Muslims use the Koran for devotional purposes this does not preclude their using the Koran as a handbook of rules.

It's true that the Koran more so than The Bible reads like a rule book , to me anyway. Also true, Muslims in recent centuries have been subject to European domination and are only now regaining the advantages of the education of the historically dominant culture.

Yours and Dachshund's hate and distrust of Islam exemplifies the drag on beneficial assimilation of Muslims into free societies. Some Muslims as I expect you to agree can interpret the Koran and its rules in its historical context. If some Muslims can do so then all Muslims can do so too.

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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Karpel Tunnel » July 21st, 2018, 10:21 am

Let's develop the immigration rule. If one wants to ban specific types of immigration, then it would be good not to aim just at one belief system, but describe the belief system in the abstract. A general rule.

It seems like the general rule is we should ban immigration of people who have belief systems that can lead to violence and harm.

I would like to then ban: arms dealers and purchasers, representatives of the IMF, corporate representatives to companies that can be shown to repeatedly harm either Americans or citizens of other countries - Dow execs should be no fly, for example. Clearly anyone in or travelling to neo-con think tanks should be no fly no immigration. It would probably be good to consider men, since they are vastly more likely to commit violence and things like sexual abuse. Though this is not based on a belief system, still we must see to it that the violence in the world stops.

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