What is the proper foundation for a marriage?

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Sy Borg
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Re: What is the proper foundation for a marriage?

Post by Sy Borg »

Nick_A wrote:
Philosophy Explorer wrote:There is much discussion about gay marriage, but I want to broaden that to any kind of legal marriage.

I think the three biggies are love, money and children (i.e. raising a family). Besides this, would you say marriage is an institution or becoming a fad? Also how different can the marriage partners be for the marriage to survive?

PhilX
The proper foundation for a good marriage is man on top and woman on the bottom. The rest is experimentation.
A statement without reasoning.

Is this notion based on your long and deep experience of human diversity and the outcomes of various types of relationships?
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Ormond
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Re: What is the proper foundation for a marriage?

Post by Ormond »

Philosophy Explorer wrote:What is the proper foundation for a marriage?
Friendship.
If the things we want to hear could take us where we want to go, we'd already be there.
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Re: What is the proper foundation for a marriage?

Post by Lark_Truth »

There seems to be a few sensual responses to this post. Marriage can't be just that. If it was, then what would be the point of getting married in the first place?
Marriage has to be something more than that. Maybe the legal definition of marriage is to cement in the eyes of the law the smallest, most basic, and the most important unit of any society in the world: the family.
The FAMILY people, it is an extremely beneficial unit of society where each of its members are supporting each other because they love each other.
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LuckyR
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Re: What is the proper foundation for a marriage?

Post by LuckyR »

Are we describing what makes a success marriage or debating the core definition of marriage?
"As usual... it depends."
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Sy Borg
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Re: What is the proper foundation for a marriage?

Post by Sy Borg »

People tend to band together in couples, family and other combinations, because they enjoy the associations and living in groups provides backup and security. Marriage is:

1) the legal contract that provides a couple's rights and responsibilities, and a framework for division of assets should they split

2) Societal recognition of the validity of the couple's bonding, which today to me seems rather trivial and ritualistic.
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Re: What is the proper foundation for a marriage?

Post by Haicoway »

Luck and circumstances are huge factors in what holds marriages together. Having similar world views and IQs are important. A lasting spouse will smell good to the other one. Not getting fat and trimming renegade hairs are good moves, too. Personalities can be totally different.

I’m happily married after 50 years. For the first half of that time both my wife and I had many affairs. We also did a lot of drugs. Many of my girlfriends were gorgeous, and several were accomplished. I tell you this so you won’t think we stuck together for some reason such as that nobody else would have us, or that we are God-fearing goody two-shoes.

Here’s why we made it, happily. We discovered the most important applicable mechanism: the utility of making an unshakable commitment - taking a stand, forever, no matter what. And the way one does this is to decide to do something for no reason at all. As long as there is a reason for doing something, like remaining loyal, if the justification for that reason changes, the commitment can be tossed aside. “My wife cheated, so I’m going to,” for example, after a couple pledged not to cheat for a reason, such as, “I’m doing it because she’s good to me, and I love her.”

My wife took me aside one day and said, “Haicoway (that name I use for this forum means “open like the ocean,” in Chinese. I, a Caucasian American, worked for a Chinese company, and they gave me a Chinese name to use which they thought fit me), I have been unfaithful to you many times, but I am never going to cheat on you again. You don’t have to make the same commitment, but I am inviting you to.” I knew that was a watershed moment. I thought for a few seconds and said, “I agree.” Neither one of us ever violated that pledge, because we did it out of the blue, for no reason – and we were familiar with this mechanism of “free” will. And once you make a pledge like that, other supporting behavior follows, such as being kinder to the person, because all the psychology that hedges bets no longer applies.

There’s more to how one goes about understanding the mechanism so that it can be applied. But there is no stronger interpersonal glue in the universe.
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Re: What is the proper foundation for a marriage?

Post by LuckyR »

Haicoway wrote:Luck and circumstances are huge factors in what holds marriages together. Having similar world views and IQs are important. A lasting spouse will smell good to the other one. Not getting fat and trimming renegade hairs are good moves, too. Personalities can be totally different.

I’m happily married after 50 years. For the first half of that time both my wife and I had many affairs. We also did a lot of drugs. Many of my girlfriends were gorgeous, and several were accomplished. I tell you this so you won’t think we stuck together for some reason such as that nobody else would have us, or that we are God-fearing goody two-shoes.

Here’s why we made it, happily. We discovered the most important applicable mechanism: the utility of making an unshakable commitment - taking a stand, forever, no matter what. And the way one does this is to decide to do something for no reason at all. As long as there is a reason for doing something, like remaining loyal, if the justification for that reason changes, the commitment can be tossed aside. “My wife cheated, so I’m going to,” for example, after a couple pledged not to cheat for a reason, such as, “I’m doing it because she’s good to me, and I love her.”

My wife took me aside one day and said, “Haicoway (that name I use for this forum means “open like the ocean,” in Chinese. I, a Caucasian American, worked for a Chinese company, and they gave me a Chinese name to use which they thought fit me), I have been unfaithful to you many times, but I am never going to cheat on you again. You don’t have to make the same commitment, but I am inviting you to.” I knew that was a watershed moment. I thought for a few seconds and said, “I agree.” Neither one of us ever violated that pledge, because we did it out of the blue, for no reason – and we were familiar with this mechanism of “free” will. And once you make a pledge like that, other supporting behavior follows, such as being kinder to the person, because all the psychology that hedges bets no longer applies.

There’s more to how one goes about understanding the mechanism so that it can be applied. But there is no stronger interpersonal glue in the universe.
Congrats to you and I take your word on the quality of our marriage. Having said that, many would have pulled the plug at the multiple affair level, myself included. BTW the "pledge" you took, others take before marriage when they start sleeping with their girlfriend/boyfriend.
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Re: What is the proper foundation for a marriage?

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Not the pledge I took, Lucky, as I attempted to clarify. Statistics show that around half of married people step out. And they all took pledges. So I suggest they didn’t take a pledge like I am talking about; they took one for a reason - religious, moral and otherwise. And I am maintaining that they don’t work, as statistics demonstrate.
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Re: What is the proper foundation for a marriage?

Post by LuckyR »

Haicoway wrote:Not the pledge I took, Lucky, as I attempted to clarify. Statistics show that around half of married people step out. And they all took pledges. So I suggest they didn’t take a pledge like I am talking about; they took one for a reason - religious, moral and otherwise. And I am maintaining that they don’t work, as statistics demonstrate.
Clearly you guys were right to skip the pledge that couldn't be kept... until you could actually keep it. I look at the stats perhaps differently that you. IMO way, way too many people sign up for monogamy than can do it. Thus traditional, monogamous marriage should be discouraged, except for those who can actually perform it. For many it isn't about monogamy yes vs no, rather when can I do this? Frequently older than the standard age of weddings.

While we're on the subject of things people take on that they can't do, I wish way more people would not have kids, or at least have them later, at a time when they can be good parents.
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Haicoway
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Re: What is the proper foundation for a marriage?

Post by Haicoway »

Lucky, in my thinking, regarding people like myself, it wouldn’t make much sense to attempt monogamy before my philosophy was mature, because there were so many excruciatingly desirable young women interested in having sex with me. Aesthetically, I don’t find anything else in the universe one-tenth as alluring as a beautiful young woman. And just observing one would be about one-hundredth as satisfying as feeling, smelling, and having sex with her. I miss that now, a lot, but having lots of applicable memories are better than nothing. And in my more mature philosophy, I believe that approaching the end of life without another person to share that journey with, intimately, would be so depressing as to induce thoughts of suicide. One can’t have both.

Regarding having children and then splitting up, that consideration was a major reason I decided against having any. My wife wanted them, but after a fashion joined my lack of interest. The other reason was we both even way back realized that the world would be overpopulated and we didn’t want to be part of the problem, or suffer the existential angst of popping progeny into a population we believe will suffer horribly from deprivation, sickness, and chaotic conflict when the unreplenishable water tables get soon sucked dry.

And we did a goofy thing which I would also recommend to young married couples before they thoughtlessly have children. We pretended we had them and during our dual-income working years put money aside for sneakers, braces, clothes, music lessons, college educations, and such, and accumulated a seven-figure mad money account, which in our retirement we use for all kinds of frolic, in addition to our amble savings for regular living. I think that little game greased the wheels of our marital commitment and purpose. I sometimes wish I could lecture in high schools about the utility I just outlined. But our Christian society wouldn’t allow it.
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Re: What is the proper foundation for a marriage?

Post by Ormond »

Good sharing, you who are open like the ocean. I'm happy for you that you and your wife found your own way to what was right for you.

Probably the simplest argument against affairs is that few people can handle them. Most people simply aren't secure enough to manage such an emotionally complicated business. Thus, moral codes which prohibit affairs seem practical generally speaking, if not a correct analysis of every instance.

That said, in the highly unlikely event that two people who are both strong enough to manage such arrangements should find each other, more power to them. On yet the other hand, we might also recall that there are more parties involved than just the couple in question, there are those the couple are having affairs with. Are all these people able to handle the comings and goings too? Seems very unlikely. Which brings us to...

How will these moral equations be challenged by the inevitable emergence of hyper-realistic virtual reality porn? Let's imagine a high def photo realistic image which is projected off the screen in to the 3D real world space, and then married to interactivity.

Can one have an affair with a non-human digital representation? Will people generally accept this as a somewhat acceptable compromise middle ground? Or, will "digital affairs" present an even greater threat to marriages given that your digital partner can be customized to your taste to a degree not close to being available in the real world? How is your human mate supposed to compete with a digital mate who can be both exactly what you want from moment to moment, and always under your control, freeing you from the burdens of compromise, negotiation, complications etc?

And we think such questions are complicated now....
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Re: What is the proper foundation for a marriage?

Post by Haicoway »

Thanks, Ormond. Digital sex will be a hit with a lot of people and totally inadequate for many others. I am a big fan of female aromas from every part: hair, breath, underarms, etcetera. I have talked with men who swear they can’t smell anything from a woman, as hard as that is for me to believe. So they could likely take to virtual women faster than I would. And how about women that prefer having sex with German Shepherds over human beings? There’s no accounting for people or the wide variety of their sexual preferences.

With that backdrop, I will divulge a digital release valve for my no longer having the pleasure of promiscuous sex. There’s a J-pop song and dance troupe in Japan called AKB48. And they have several sister groups. The number 48 is used generically to denote a lot of girls in each troupe, some numbering more than 100. The girls are all young (13 to 26), with close to perfect bodies, and pretty faces. Selected from thousands of girls who try out for every available position, as girls grow too old for the troupes and “graduate,” they each have identifiable charisma.

I saw the troupe perform on YouTube shortly after they originally formed, and experienced a wild, inexplicable feeling that I was in the presence of God. Strange because, being a philosophical agnostic, and practical atheist, I never before had a spiritual sensation. And why from a bunch of girls jumping around? I told people this and was laughed at. Then, after a couple of years, curiously, the Japanese people apotheosized seven of the girls into Shinto gods.

Trying to understand all of this, I grokked a psychic comparison with Islam’s 72 virgins. As part of the marketing shtick that has made the troupe into a multi-billion-dollar franchise and possibly the biggest entertainment phenomenon in Japan’s history, the Japanese “idols” swear celibacy, like nuns, as long as they are in the troupe, and they don’t even date. This assures that every fan is as close the girl he chooses as his personal favorite (“Oshimen”), or goddess, as any other boy or man in the universe, and forges a sense of personal intimacy, like a Christian might feel with the Virgin Mary.

Many lyrics of the troupes' songs focus on how much the girls love their fans. If you like, you can Google “Seishun no Lap Time” and click onto a YouTube of either AKB48 or NMB48 to view it. The girls sing that they are running around a school track in homage to the one they love. At the end of the song, they bunch up at the foot of the stage and shout out, “It’s you!” They perform in their captive theatre almost daily and vouchsafe meets and greets with their fans after the performances. This is how they forge the intimate bond with the fans and why I, and, I believe, millions of Japanese boys and men, have used them to take the edge off of not having live contact with young women.
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