What Is The True Nature of The Mind

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TigerNinja
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What Is The True Nature of The Mind

Post by TigerNinja »

I found that in a lot of philosophical books I read and all the places I go that there is at least reference to the nature of the mind. This philosophical question has always confused me but I have reached my own personal conclusion and I would like to hear other people's opinions and beliefs upon my idea. I was told that I am an eliminative materialist. This means that I believe that there is no mind. I believe that the mind is a culmination of chemicals and conditioning.

I believe this as for there to be a mind in the sense that there is a supernatural thing that maintains the bodies action, there must be at least a form of a different realm which has these minds. Also, the only reason I believe what I do is because I have been raised surrounded by such ideologies. If someone was constantly raised surrounded by abusive parents, they are more likely (Not certain as people who have had abusive nature have a different outlook on how they do not want other people to have such pain), to be somewhat abusive. Many criminals have bad backgrounds, be it living in poverty or having rich but very abusive parents. This conditioning changes their outlook on the world.

Everyone has conditioning. You cannot simply say, 'Well they're abusive but what about normal people.' (Know that I use the term normal to describe what is widely considered normal and do not mean to discriminate those who have a different background) as then you would be saying that conditioning is only in severe instances. To counter this, I say that everything has a form of conditioning as a result. Even the most subtle things that affect you will change your outlook. Maybe you saw someone calling someone racist when it was not necessary and then you thought such an act was racist. I would also like to clarify that I do not believe that age matters when it comes to conditioning, as you can condition an adult to act a certain way in a new society, therefore allowing them to be able to learn to act in accordance to those laws, etc.

The chemicals I referenced earlier are fragments of biology. According to Descartes, animals have no 'mind' which as a result may seem that they only rely on instinct. That means that chimpanzees, which have been seen to have emotions, even if they are not to the extent of humans, do not have a mind. What then allows them to have such emotions? The simple fact that ligans (Emotion- affecting chemicals) have to change how they feel. This means that if chimpanzees, who share 90-99% of their DNA (Multiple studies have different results) and that ligans have been found in humans only furthers my argument. This is why I feel that humans lack the mental ability to have a mind and make our own choices but rather it is conditioning that shape our opinions and thoughts and ligans that vary how those will come out and how those will affect our mind.

I hope you also find this topic interesting, as it truly does play arguably the largest part in our daily lives.

-- Updated July 24th, 2016, 4:25 am to add the following --

In what I wrote when talking about how Descartes believes that animals have no soul, did I ask... What defines an animal? Fauna? Well then we are animals as proven by basic ideas such as, we show signs of life, there is no borderline between humans and animals etc. This means that in no way can you say either that we are different from animals or that we are not equal. In my opinion, there is no longer between humans and ants.
Jsr
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Re: What Is The True Nature of The Mind

Post by Jsr »

Hi,

I hope you might have been to cinema and noticed a big screen on which falls the picture that emanates from a projector in which a light pass though fast moving films.

If the projector is not running there wont be anything falling on the screen and you will just see the screen.

And when the projector runs without film you will see only the projector light on the screen.

And when a film is inserted in the projector you will not see the screen but the picture projected by the projector.

Plain screen is the Mind but the flowing, non stop train of thoughts is the film, our awareness is the light and the projector is our body.

When the projector is running without film.... we just see the screen illuminated by the light..... Just like that when our thoughts stop.... and when we are aware (not sleeping) our awareness illuminates the mind and become one with the mind.

But what prevents us from seeing our mind is the continuous, non stop thoughts that is running all the time.

The only difference between the cinema and us is........ In cinema the screen is independent of the projector.... whereas in us everything is dependent on the mind.

There is mind, from which our awareness emanate and from which our thoughts emanate non stop.

Without Mind no one can exist.
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TigerNinja
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Re: What Is The True Nature of The Mind

Post by TigerNinja »

Jsr wrote:Hi,

I hope you might have been to cinema and noticed a big screen on which falls the picture that emanates from a projector in which a light pass though fast moving films.

If the projector is not running there wont be anything falling on the screen and you will just see the screen.

And when the projector runs without film you will see only the projector light on the screen.

And when a film is inserted in the projector you will not see the screen but the picture projected by the projector.

Plain screen is the Mind but the flowing, non stop train of thoughts is the film, our awareness is the light and the projector is our body.

When the projector is running without film.... we just see the screen illuminated by the light..... Just like that when our thoughts stop.... and when we are aware (not sleeping) our awareness illuminates the mind and become one with the mind.

But what prevents us from seeing our mind is the continuous, non stop thoughts that is running all the time.

The only difference between the cinema and us is........ In cinema the screen is independent of the projector.... whereas in us everything is dependent on the mind.

There is mind, from which our awareness emanate and from which our thoughts emanate non stop.

Without Mind no one can exist.
I beg to differ. I believe that we can exist independent of a mind. I believe that the mind is simply a bi product of our animal instincts of which take the form of conditioning.

-- Updated August 23rd, 2016, 4:03 am to add the following --
TigerNinja wrote:
Jsr wrote:Hi,

I hope you might have been to cinema and noticed a big screen on which falls the picture that emanates from a projector in which a light pass though fast moving films.

If the projector is not running there wont be anything falling on the screen and you will just see the screen.

And when the projector runs without film you will see only the projector light on the screen.

And when a film is inserted in the projector you will not see the screen but the picture projected by the projector.

Plain screen is the Mind but the flowing, non stop train of thoughts is the film, our awareness is the light and the projector is our body.

When the projector is running without film.... we just see the screen illuminated by the light..... Just like that when our thoughts stop.... and when we are aware (not sleeping) our awareness illuminates the mind and become one with the mind.

But what prevents us from seeing our mind is the continuous, non stop thoughts that is running all the time.

The only difference between the cinema and us is........ In cinema the screen is independent of the projector.... whereas in us everything is dependent on the mind.

There is mind, from which our awareness emanate and from which our thoughts emanate non stop.

Without Mind no one can exist.
I beg differ. I believe that we can exist independent of a mind. I believe that the mind is simply a bi product of our animal instincts of which take the form of conditioning.
Also, may I ask, is the movie real? Not in the sense that, is Iron Man really fighting captain America when I watch Captain America (great movie may I say), but does the movie has any physical form. It does not. The movie is a result of the actors acting and the producers thinking and the cameramen filming. In our bodies, there is no purpose. The mind is a bi product. The only purpose is for us to survive. The mind is the body's way of giving fears and hopes to allow us to make logical decisions whether to chase the deer in a long hunt or ambush it.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer
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Sy Borg
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Re: What Is The True Nature of The Mind

Post by Sy Borg »

Pretty well Dan Dennett's view.

The fact of the matter is that minds exist and they are highly influential on local environs, and humans are far from the only organisms with minds. IMO it's better to study minds than to deny their existence or importance.

It seem likely to me that human minds will be superceded by collective consciousness - multiple individual perceptions pulled into a larger singular perspective in the same way as our brains pull together disparate sensory data to create a flowing, seamless experience. Minds exist, and human minds would seem to be far from the endgame in a young universe with much life (production of new stars) left in it.
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated—Gandhi.
Jsr
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Re: What Is The True Nature of The Mind

Post by Jsr »

TigerNinja wrote:
I believe that the mind is simply a bi product of our animal instincts of which take the form of conditioning.
Exactly. But it is not just confined to animal instincts or further conditioning, it also encompasses each and every thought and action of ours. (may be this is what you meant by "further conditioning")

When you keep your mind empty... which means you have your awareness but you do not have any thought... then you will be physically and mentally inactive.

This in-activeness is the most profound in-activeness and if you can attain this state at least for a second(of course in this state you will not be aware of passing of time.... we can gauge the time by approximation post we are out this in-activeness....... And even a second is a long time but for the sake of brevity we are using one second), you will escape the awareness of your body and mind however there will be an awareness which is distinct from your body and mind awareness.

Only in this state you, for that minute, you are without mind. But the moment you are out of this state, you are back to your mind. (If you stay in this state for an extended period of time... like from a second to 30 sec... to 1 minute... to 5 minutes and so on.... more profound will be your experience)

So, when I said "nobody can exist without a mind" what I meant was "Mind is the reason why I / We exist as what I Am / We are" and once we escape from our mind by this In-activeness we cease to exist (This is not death)... In deep sleep too we achieve this in-activeness involuntarily.
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Re: What Is The True Nature of The Mind

Post by Belinda »

There is too much hangover from the era during which people believed that mind is sort of a ghostly substance in its own right.

Surely mind should be considered as an aspect of brain-mind that's to say, the mind aspect of brain-mind. Mind ans brain are identical and mind is the subjective aspect of the same as what has also an objective aspect. Please consider that the proper people to say what mind is, are neuroscientists, or even better, neuroscientists and psychologsists aiding each other.
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TigerNinja
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Re: What Is The True Nature of The Mind

Post by TigerNinja »

Jsr wrote:
TigerNinja wrote:

(Nested quote removed.)
Exactly. But it is not just confined to animal instincts or further conditioning, it also encompasses each and every thought and action of ours. (may be this is what you meant by "further conditioning")

When you keep your mind empty... which means you have your awareness but you do not have any thought... then you will be physically and mentally inactive.

This in-activeness is the most profound in-activeness and if you can attain this state at least for a second(of course in this state you will not be aware of passing of time.... we can gauge the time by approximation post we are out this in-activeness....... And even a second is a long time but for the sake of brevity we are using one second), you will escape the awareness of your body and mind however there will be an awareness which is distinct from your body and mind awareness.

Only in this state you, for that minute, you are without mind. But the moment you are out of this state, you are back to your mind. (If you stay in this state for an extended period of time... like from a second to 30 sec... to 1 minute... to 5 minutes and so on.... more profound will be your experience)

So, when I said "nobody can exist without a mind" what I meant was "Mind is the reason why I / We exist as what I Am / We are" and once we escape from our mind by this In-activeness we cease to exist (This is not death)... In deep sleep too we achieve this in-activeness involuntarily.
Now that your description is elaborated on, I now understand your point of view. I am agreeing with it more and more. The mind is a natural thing but it has not a supernatural essence. I believe that the mind is not individual of the body. It is a result of these survival instincts at a higher level.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer
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Sy Borg
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Re: What Is The True Nature of The Mind

Post by Sy Borg »

Same old problem again, over and over in different guises. Which is fundamental - life or matter?

The answer is always the same. No matter how much people think they know the answer to this question, they really don't. Not at all.
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated—Gandhi.
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Re: What Is The True Nature of The Mind

Post by Stepanok1 »

However you may wish to define ''mind'' you need to have one to ask the question.
So you will always end up with I have a ''mind'' because I have a ''mind''.
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Re: What Is The True Nature of The Mind

Post by Dan_1985 »

The mind's true nature is that it is devoid of essential nature: It is not and autonomous singularity.

It is conscious, cognizant, and aware.
Singularity and momentariness is not the nature of the world.
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TigerNinja
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Re: What Is The True Nature of The Mind

Post by TigerNinja »

Dan_1985 wrote:The mind's true nature is that it is devoid of essential nature: It is not and autonomous singularity.

It is conscious, cognizant, and aware.
Aware of what, though? The self? The mind has been, if you will, taught to say such things. There is no such thing as individuality really as our minds are accustomed to logically associate things. The only individuality in the mind is our logic of this association itself.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer
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Re: What Is The True Nature of The Mind

Post by Quotidian »

TigerNinja wrote:The mind has been, if you will, taught to say such things.
But the mind has to be there, in order for it to be taught, doesn't it?
'For there are many here among us who think that life is but a joke' ~ Dylan
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Re: What Is The True Nature of The Mind

Post by Jsr »

Quotidian wrote: the the mind has to be there, in order for it to be taught, doesn't it?
You are absolutely correct, but....

When we are young we are ignorant, ignorance stem from fact that mind has not matured, and as we grow we mature (but considering the amount of knowledge in the world we always remain ignorant about vast majority of them but they have little or no impact on us).

Now we mature only by using the ignorant mind. We go to school, college & apply practically and mature.

Likewise, with this mature mind we have put a lot of effort to go a step further to reach "no mind" state.

Once you reach that state you will clearly know the difference between"mind state" & "no mind" state.
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TigerNinja
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Re: What Is The True Nature of The Mind

Post by TigerNinja »

Quotidian wrote:
TigerNinja wrote:The mind has been, if you will, taught to say such things.
But the mind has to be there, in order for it to be taught, doesn't it?
I do believe in the mind but less, as Belinda put it, ' as a ghostly substance' but, as I have said, a bi product of natural instincts.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer
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Re: What Is The True Nature of The Mind

Post by Quotidian »

Right. Well, many people think that, there is even a name for it, or various names, like 'evolutionary reductionism', 'eliminative materialism', and the like. According to that view, 'mind' is simply an adaptive capacity, like teeth or claws, which is suited to the purposes of survival - as you say, the by-product of natural selection.

The problem with all those arguments is that they're self-defeating. If you sign up to a philosophy forum, and put an argument, then what are you trying to do? You're trying to persuade others that your view is right, that the mind, after all, is just instinctive, or whatever. The problem for you is that if you succeed in doing that, you've undermined your own argument, because you have shown there is 'a mind that can be changed', and, furthermore, that it can be changed by rational argument. But if you can't win the argument - in my case, you certainly haven't - then you're not making your case. So basically I see it as an unwinnable argument. By all means, believe that there is no such thing as mind, but if you really do believe that, then you ought to not waste your time arguing about it.
'For there are many here among us who think that life is but a joke' ~ Dylan
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