Is it wrong to have kids?

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Pages
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Re: Is it wrong to have kids?

Post by Pages » August 22nd, 2016, 2:25 am

Above us only sky wrote:Just quote the words on this topic from a friend I met online:
The whole process seems idiotic.

Make a lot of money so you can attract a conservative gold-digger wife
She has a baby, the baby whines 24/7 and keeps you awake at night.
Both of you are too busy to take care of the baby, so it just goes to daycare.
It is stuck in school, for 9 hours chained to a desk where it is not allowed to speak.
During this time it is bullied, rejected, and exposed to all sorts of negative, angsty, depressing things.
Then it is taught to go do a 9 to 5 job, to make more money, so it can attract a conservative gold-digger wife
to make more babies.
More babies are born, who work like a slave their whole lives, to make more babies, who work like a slave their whole lives.
What's your comments on it?
Well, most of the times that's pretty much fact, crudely put. It may not be exactly as the poster puts it but, most of the times that is a rough sketch of what happens. We are all living in circles. Most of us can't see it because we have chose to keep lying to ourselves and our kids that everything would be alright.
Lucy was right, it is very much harder to be positive than negative. I cannot just get a cabin buy a PlayStation and Internet connection, get any new game that comes out and try to convince myself that "...life is full of ups and downs, you can't change that, just focus on the good things of life, live and let die... "
Two possibilities exist... Either we are alone in the universe or we are not. Both are equally terrifying.
- Arthur C. Clarke

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Re: Is it wrong to have kids?

Post by Lucylu » August 22nd, 2016, 5:39 am

Pages wrote:We are all living in circles. Most of us can't see it because we have chose to keep lying to ourselves and our kids that everything would be alright.
Lucy was right, it is very much harder to be positive than negative. I cannot just get a cabin buy a PlayStation and Internet connection, get any new game that comes out and try to convince myself that "...life is full of ups and downs, you can't change that, just focus on the good things of life, live and let die... "
Am I allowed to speak? If I'm going to be referred to, I think I should be. :D

Locking yourself away and losing yourself in a fantasy game world (giving yourself everything you want), isn't what I meant. That's just closing your eyes, putting your fingers in your ears and praying for change basically. That wont change anything.

Sometimes if we 'dejunk' our lives then we realise we don't need the cabin, that our own home is peaceful enough. You have to ask yourself, why don't I love my home and find it peaceful...Why don't I love my life? Because of the children's suffering? I don't think that's a realistic excuse.
Ormond wrote:We should grant the point that people are born with more, or less, natural ability in such things.
Yes, I do agree. Everything that I've said comes with the caveat that I don't have or want children myself, so I'm a mass of contradictions! I just don't see that not wanting to have children (being a conscientious objector of sorts) means that we cant still be a positive person who enjoys life, as Vijay said. If we are born sensitive, thoughtful and introverted, as many people here will be, it can seem like a difficult lot in life. It often requires constructing a different sort of life than the masses are able/happier to live. A quieter, simpler life.

Some people enjoy being unhappy as well, which is just fine too. It does make us feel kind of superior! I just don't like how it brings everyone else down. The energy is sort of thick and contagious, like a virus, especially if you have to see them regularly. I used to be very negative and feel the same as Pages, so I like to fly the flag for learning self awareness and the possibility of change.
Greta wrote:It's one of my favourite TED Talks, along with Jill Bolte Taylor's.

Many are at their most focused and functional when presented with deadlines. Freedom can overwhelm us with choice. It's an issue I've been wrestling with since retirement because I would rather not restrict my freedom to "force" myself to do things but to muster it from within. So far I have been found wanting

Yes, if the happiness created by shaping perceptions is as efficacious as happiness created by getting what you want, then we have some power over our happiness. The problem is one of control; easier said than done!
I've taken a break form TED talks recently because I found some of the speakers were sneaking in a bit of new age spirituality but I will have to get back in to.

Some people find retirement very difficult and are bored out of their minds, whereas I was born for it! I could quite happily potter around all day on my own, for all eternity. I have recently forced myself to get motivated by starting an access course, and hopefully going back to uni (for the second time) next year. That's going to be quite a shock to the system but I'm also really looking forward to it in a way. I'm taking a year to gear up to it and get everything in place though! Maybe you could do an online course- that's a good way to have set goals but still be left to organize how you go about it yourself. Another motivator is organizing to do things with someone else. Or even hiring someone to be your life coach to call/email regularly and talk about your progress etc. Or voluntary work?

Good luck!
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts". -Bertrand Russell

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Re: Is it wrong to have kids?

Post by Jsr » August 22nd, 2016, 6:33 am

Pages wrote:
Jsr wrote:.
(1) That was why I said everybody is selfish but, with difference in what drives one.
(2) I agree with what you said but, isn't it negligence if we continue procreating so they could come and join us in trying to solve suffering, despite you and I know it is something that won't go away?
(3)The inception of our intentions that turn out to be actions are our own decisions

Lets take point (1).
I am driven by my selfishness, this is very true. And my selfishness is not same as your selfishness (or) it can be same as your selfishness (or) we have some common selfishness (or) majority of our selfishness are common (or) Majority of our selfishness are different. Simply put the proportion of our selfishness varies between 0% and 100%.

If I extrapolate this to include a third person and a family and a group and a society etc etc the proportion of my selfishness to that of the society as a whole shall vary between 0% and 100%.

If every individual in a society has the least proportion of selfishness to that of the society then that society will break away. And if every individual in a society has the most proportion of selfishness to that of the society then that society shall remain strong.

Invariably most of the individual in a society have majority of their selfishness in line with that of the society and hence most of their actions will be in line with the society. And of course there are individuals in society whose selfishness differ from that of the society but still stay within the society and may either create problem for the society or remain submissive. The trouble makers are branded as the bad elements while the submissive largely remain unknown. Likewise, any individual whose selfishness is 100% in line with that of the society shall either try to lead or remain passive and those who try to lead shall become the "group heads" and shall have a greater influence on other members of the society.

Now to answer your question, in the first place we need to assess how many in our society have the selfishness to have kids. Invariably majority of them want to have kids and hence the population is raising year after year.

Those who procreate can be subdivided into many classes but lets divide them into broadly two classes (1) Procreate after analyzing pros and cons of their action and its impact on their kids & (2) Do not break their heads like you and me but mostly follow the society. (We are ignoring those who decided not to procreate)

If you analyze those who are in the process of procreating they are not overtly concerned about the future of their kids but they do have a positive plan for their kids. Positive because they have an attitude that they can give a better life to their kids then what they themselves have. (If they were to feel that this world is not worth living, based on their experience, they will not even think of procreating but the very fact that they are procreating is a proof that they feel that the world is worth living)

If you ask those who had procreated few years back, majority of them will still have a positive outlook though they may be struggling now. (Even if we assume that some of them are living a miserable life post having kids, the very fact that they are working so hard and hoping to have a better life is a fact that the world is worth living. In case they do not have any hope of a better future they will cease working hard but we only see majority of them working hard which itself is a proof that they are indeed having a hope of a better future)

If you ask those who had procreated a long time back and their children are on their own, still majority of them will not regret their decision to have kids even if their children and they themselves are suffering. (Even if they and their grown up children are leading a miserable life.... their very livelihood is a proof that they do not want wish to die because their suffering is not as unbearable for them to quit living.)

So the answer to your question is: Those who do not want to have kids may (1) Not worry about the actions of others who have kids and hence will not take a stand whether to have kids as right or wrong & (2) Worry about others and the kids and carry a view that to have kids is wrong.... because they feel that the kids will suffer if it were to be born.

It is enough to prove either of them as right or wrong, since the second group is worried we are trying to analyze and see if we can alleviate their worries by proving to them that their worries are misplaced. If they happen to be right then it is for the better of the society to stop procreating.

Now we need to understand whether those who belong to the second group are right in their stand or not. We shall see...

Now lets take the point (2)
I agree with what you said but, isn't it negligence if we continue procreating so they could come and join us in trying to solve suffering..
The important question is "is my selfishness constant throughout my life?". The answer is Definitely NO.

Of course not all selfishness changes but most of them change. There are may be some core selfishness that die with us but even these change in their intensity from time to time.

Today I am an individual and do not want to have a life partner. There arises a question "will this selfishness remain constant till my death?". Today though I am firmly resolved in this, but what is the certainty that I will never marry? But if my intensity of my resolve remain strong then I will never marry however there is no certainty that this resolve shall remain strong till I die. This intensity may fluctuate and at times I may feel that there is nothing wrong in marrying and if suddenly the situation becomes so conducive for me to marry I may end up marrying!!

Till I get married I may keep resisting and avoid being negligent but because of some unexpected happenings I end up marrying and the resistance to not marry become meaningless and all those thoughts and actions that were supporting my resolve fall apart.

Now few things may happen post marriage (1) I might end up feeling very bad for the decision because what I feared the most about the marriage I ended up falling into it (2) I may feel "How silly of me to assume so many wrong things about marriage but now I feel all those assumptions are incorrect because married life is not as bad as I thought it to be!!" & (3) I may end up becoming much more lively and energetic then I every was!!

Assume there are three persons, including me, who never wanted to marry and all of us ended up marrying. And assume each of us undergo any one of the above mentioned experiences. So two of us will be better off while one will feel miserable!!

This is what is happening in the society, that is, at least two third of the society is feeling better off having kids while may be one third feel it is wrong!!!

And of the remaining one third, lets not forget those who do not worry about others or do not greatly bother about the suffering of kids, are also part of that one third. So if you add up this group of the one third to the two third then then two third may go up to even three fourth!! To this we can also add those who never married, though married but could not procreate, married and divorced and never remarried, married but lose spouse but never remarry etc etc..... Obviously the two third will grow and may even become 80% or even 90% of the society!!!

So, how can I say having kids is negligence when those who are having kids do not feel so? And there are billions who feel having kids, if not good definitely not bad!!

Most importantly, when I do not have any self experience how can I question the experience of parents who feel it is not wrong to have kids?? Even if we assume that only very few parents feel that having kids is not wrong, still how can i question them because they are experiencing it whereas I am only talking about it without any self experience??? (But in reality majority of the parents are NOT feeling wrong to have kids)

Now the question boils down to "If I have kids what is the probability that I may end up feeling bad?"

To that, the pertinent counter question is "How do I know whether having kid is like being negligent without experiencing it when it can be really turn out to be good?". Of course some are feeling bad after having kids but most of them do not feel so!!

Just because I have a fear that I may end up feeling bad post having kids, how can I conclude having kids is wrong?

Now lets consider point (3)
The inception of our intentions that turn out to be actions are our own decisions
We can also state that "Not all the inceptions are our intentions TILL they become our actions"
We can also state that "Not all the inceptions are our actual intentions but still they may become our actions"
We can also state that "Allowing an inception itself is our action by default which happens because of our inaction as inaction itself is an action"
So we can also state that "We can choose whether to allow an inception or not"

So the inception of selfishness which later translates into our intention and later translates to action is within our control.

So We can state that "We also can act to remove any inception that is detrimental to our selflessness"

If you remove all the inception of selfishness, whether it is our intention or not and whether we have acted on that or not, and allow the inception of selflessness then the very conclusion of "having kids is wrong" becomes irrelevant because I will be filled only with selflessness.

Once you are filled with selflessness, the suffering you see will NOT vanish from your sight instead your perception about sufferings will change because you will NOT have any selfishness. This can only be experienced and no amount of explanation will help.

So we have to start working towards removing the selfishness in us and put in its place selflessness. It is not necessary that selflessness can be experienced only after removing all the selfishness. As you start adding selflessness you will be able to see a perceptible change your attitude and this very attitude will propel you forward.

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Re: Is it wrong to have kids?

Post by Pages » August 22nd, 2016, 7:26 am

Lucylu wrote: Am I allowed to speak? If I'm going to be referred to, I think I should be. :D

Locking yourself away and losing yourself in a fantasy game world (giving yourself everything you want), isn't what I meant. That's just closing your eyes, putting your fingers in your ears and praying for change basically. That wont change anything.

Sometimes if we 'dejunk' our lives then we realise we don't need the cabin, that our own home is peaceful enough. You have to ask yourself, why don't I love my home and find it peaceful...Why don't I love my life? Because of the children's suffering? I don't think that's a realistic excuse.
Hehe... I see what's going on here. It's not that you don't understand me, you just find it difficult to believe that someone with my kind of state of mind could exist maybe because of your own limitations or inability to see things (relating to the topic) from a different perspective. That's totally fine though...

The reason I started this thread was to hear other people's reasons for having kids or wanting to have kids maybe there is something I'm missing but, almost everyone on the thread has not even scratched the issue.. It mostly just turns around to become about me and my inability to be optimistic.
If we have the right to freedom and we couldn't be reached to hear our opinions before we are born (which has already violated our freewill or not for people who would rather be born) shouldn't we just be left alone?

Sickle cell patients always say this common phrase "...we were born to experience a short painful life..." Maybe you don't have any relative with a genetic life threatening sickness or you yourself do not have it. I'm happy for you but, just because you are perfectly healthy you shouldn't make conclusions about what you know nothing about. You think it's a walk in a park to numb one'smind to the constant pain till the end of one's life? Of course people will try to find what makes life worth it, THEY ARE HERE... What other option do they have? Of course they won't commit suicide. Life is sweet no matter the suffering because, we do NOT have any other choice.

Note: I used sickle cell as AN example. There are a lot of other things that may hinder one's free decision of being happy.
Two possibilities exist... Either we are alone in the universe or we are not. Both are equally terrifying.
- Arthur C. Clarke

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Re: Is it wrong to have kids?

Post by Lucylu » August 22nd, 2016, 8:03 am

Pages wrote: It's not that you don't understand me, you just find it difficult to believe that someone with my kind of state of mind could exist maybe because of your own limitations or inability to see things (relating to the topic) from a different perspective.
I used to think just like you so I can believe it.
Pages wrote:If we have the right to freedom and we couldn't be reached to hear our opinions before we are born (which has already violated our freewill or not for people who would rather be born) shouldn't we just be left alone?
I think a lot of people don't really think about what happens too far ahead or maybe that is something humans aren't very good at. They think about having a baby and a child, not creating an adult. I think that's why many parents always see their offspring as children even when the 'child' is in the 50s! Its a sort of tunnel vision. And many mothers I've met of young adults think they are wonderful mothers but actually it is closer to need than respect. They cant stand to let the 'child' go, so they manipulate them with guilt. I agree that having children is for the benefit of the parent not the child. As I've said, I don't want children.
Pages wrote:Sickle cell patients always say this common phrase "...we were born to experience a short painful life..." Maybe you don't have any relative with a genetic life threatening sickness or you yourself do not have it. I'm happy for you but, just because you are perfectly healthy you shouldn't make conclusions about what you know nothing about.
I was a care assistant for many years and a live-in carer for 3 years working with people with advanced MS, dementia, Cerebral Palsy and severe disabilities, so I do know something about these things. Do you think pity is helping?
Pages wrote:You think it's a walk in a park to numb one's mind to the constant pain till the end of one's life? Of course people will try to find what makes life worth it, THEY ARE HERE... What other option do they have? Of course they won't commit suicide. Life is sweet no matter the suffering because, we do NOT have any other choice.
I never said it was a walk in the park, just the opposite. I've already agreed it is wrong to have kids. Boohoo, life's unfair, yadah yadah. I'm not sure what more you want?

Dont worry - I'll let myself out! I appear to have backed myself in to a conversational cul-de-sac from which I can only annoy you! :D
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts". -Bertrand Russell

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Re: Is it wrong to have kids?

Post by Pages » August 22nd, 2016, 8:22 am

Lucylu wrote:...
Haha... Nahh... I don't think you CAN annoy me. C'mon it's just the internet...
If you see things they way I do that's fine but, I wasn't arguing to win, I never do.

-- Updated August 22nd, 2016, 8:26 am to add the following --

And no... Pity won't help but, it's like food when one is hungry, one can't help it
Two possibilities exist... Either we are alone in the universe or we are not. Both are equally terrifying.
- Arthur C. Clarke

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Re: Is it wrong to have kids?

Post by Lucylu » August 22nd, 2016, 8:56 am

Pages wrote:
Haha... Nahh... I don't think you CAN annoy me. C'mon it's just the internet...
If you see things they way I do that's fine but, I wasn't arguing to win, I never do.
Oh that's good. I can be like a dog with a bone sometimes!
Pages wrote: And no... Pity won't help but, it's like food when one is hungry, one can't help it
I wasn't kidding when i said you could try doing some care work and it might change your perspective. There is one theory that it is society that disables people by its view of them when the disabled person actually wants to be seen as a human being who happens to be living with a disability. Often the disabled person isn't asked what they want, or how they view the world, but it is assumed for them by non-disabled people. Even though the 'prejudice' may be positive e.g, disabled people are pitied and treated with kid gloves, it is still prejudice (pre-judgement) and not respect.

Its called the Social Model of Disability. You might be interested to check it out. I think it goes too far to the other extreme as if there is no such thing as disability but it does raise some very good points. A lot of the emotional stress of disabilities is caused by barriers within society and depression at being seen as 'damaged' etc. Whereas if society changed sufficiently, which is already happening more in recent years, with the higher profile of the paralympics and more disabled people being seen on TV, then many of the difficulties that comes with having a disability could be minimized or potentially removed. Even going through changes in health and well being throughout the course of all our lives is natural, and so should be seen as normal rather than a weakness.

The theory wants to encourage the idea of a continuum model ie we all have strengths and weaknesses on a gradual scale (and there is no such thing as perfection), and move away from the traditional 'black and white' model which defined people by their differences and usually defined one group as superior and the other as inherently inferior.
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts". -Bertrand Russell

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Re: Is it wrong to have kids?

Post by Apex_Predator » August 22nd, 2016, 9:06 am

Life isn't all suffering and terrible. You can easily ask is it wrong not to have kids, to not share and sacrifice part of your life to share with your kids the pleasures of reality.

"Without suffering we would not know happiness"

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Re: Is it wrong to have kids?

Post by Empiricist-Bruno » August 22nd, 2016, 5:04 pm

An unselfish reason for wanting a child? To thank your parents for having you.
All you need is love- (But not the one from narcissists)

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Re: Is it wrong to have kids?

Post by Gr8pretender » August 22nd, 2016, 7:29 pm

I think it can be argued that the reasons people have children are for the children as well. Reproducing, at the core, is and literally means survival. Everything on the planet revolves around reproducing, or else life would cease to exist. It is the most amazing feeling in the world and everything in our live leads up to this weapon against dying off as a race.

Before we invented various means of birth control, it was not a choice. Most animals do not "choose" not to reproduce. The fact that we are able to existentially look for reasoning and pick apart why we do things is what makes us intelligent animals. There is no deep reasoning though except for we do it to improve our race. We are the currently upgraded versions of our parents and our kids (if we choose) will be the upgraded versions of ourselves. Reproducing is the hope for a better human race some day. The most basic reasons we have children is because we are wired to do so.

Humans would stop existing if it wasn't for reproducing, we all have a shelf life you know! I know it is hard to see it sometimes, but life is really extremely beautiful and we are lucky to find our little slice of heaven in a universe that is so empty, cold and dangerous.

Your reasons why people have children, (FOR the child)
- not to be lonely (companionship goes both ways you know - AKA FAMILY, which with many families, builds community for all humans).
- so others won't mock or insult you, (the pressure to stay in a community/society in is a natural instinct to survival and it is not necessarily bad, I don't think a majority of people have children for this reason but it makes sense, everyone still has their own choice to do or not do it).
- to build a community, (it ["should", if its a healthy and strong one] keep humans going and evolving).
- for ritual purposes (again, its our nature as living things. It's very difficult to argue about the nature of life)
- to carry on the family's legacy (whatever it is) etc. (would be exciting and interesting to be the next torchbearer in a well documented legacy, [my families legacy is largely undocumented], many opportunities to right wrongs, break cycles, and do something new, interesting, and different and write your own family history).

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Re: Is it wrong to have kids?

Post by Pages » August 23rd, 2016, 3:30 am

Lucylu wrote:
Pages wrote:
Haha... Nahh... I don't think you CAN annoy me. C'mon it's just the internet...
If you see things they way I do that's fine but, I wasn't arguing to win, I never do.
Oh that's good. I can be like a dog with a bone sometimes!
Pages wrote: And no... Pity won't help but, it's like food when one is hungry, one can't help it
I wasn't kidding when i said you could try doing some care work and it might change your perspective. There is one theory that it is society that disables people by its view of them when the disabled person actually wants to be seen as a human being who happens to be living with a disability. Often the disabled person isn't asked what they want, or how they view the world, but it is assumed for them by non-disabled people. Even though the 'prejudice' may be positive e.g, disabled people are pitied and treated with kid gloves, it is still prejudice (pre-judgement) and not respect.

Its called the Social Model of Disability. You might be interested to check it out. I think it goes too far to the other extreme as if there is no such thing as disability but it does raise some very good points. A lot of the emotional stress of disabilities is caused by barriers within society and depression at being seen as 'damaged' etc. Whereas if society changed sufficiently, which is already happening more in recent years, with the higher profile of the paralympics and more disabled people being seen on TV, then many of the difficulties that comes with having a disability could be minimized or potentially removed. Even going through changes in health and well being throughout the course of all our lives is natural, and so should be seen as normal rather than a weakness.

The theory wants to encourage the idea of a continuum model ie we all have strengths and weaknesses on a gradual scale (and there is no such thing as perfection), and move away from the traditional 'black and white' model which defined people by their differences and usually defined one group as superior and the other as inherently inferior.
You are right. I was talking to a sickle cell patient yesterday and the person said s/he didn't want the way his/her parents and others were treating him/her. That s/he wants to be accepted as a normal person who can enjoy life also and do what others can do. Then I thought, Lucy said this in the forum...
Then s/he said again... "...Why would I have to be born this way? Why me? Why is it that I have 5 siblings I'm at the middle but, still managed to come out with this sickness?"
My point is, no matter how normal the society try to see them, most of them would not see themselves that way. They are fully aware of their disabilities and that is the post. It doesn't matter how the society treat them but, how they see themselves, how they feel about their condition.

-- Updated August 23rd, 2016, 3:45 am to add the following --
Apex_Predator wrote:Life isn't all suffering and terrible. You can easily ask is it wrong not to have kids, to not share and sacrifice part of your life to share with your kids the pleasures of reality.
Why do I need to sacrifice part of my life? So I could create someone who might regret the decision I and his/her mother made for them for whatever reason?

And uhmm... Pleasures of reality...? Like what?
Apex_Predator wrote: "Without suffering we would not know happiness"
I wouldn't tell that to those who suffer... But you could try

-- Updated August 23rd, 2016, 4:32 am to add the following --
Gr8pretender wrote:I think it can be argued that the reasons people have children are for the children as well. Reproducing, at the core, is and literally means survival. Everything on the planet revolves around reproducing, or else life would cease to exist. It is the most amazing feeling in the world and everything in our live leads up to this weapon against dying off as a race.
Who is doing the reproduction, adults or eggs? Adults. So how is it for the benefit of the kid? Reproduction is reproduction it's very different from survival. We reproduce out of FEAR that OUR race would die out... Thus, making decisions for the unborn children, assuming they would wanna be part of a course to maintain the existence of the human race.
Then again, of course they would take part in that course after they are born. They won't have a choice.
Gr8pretender wrote: before we invented various means of birth control, it was not a choice. Most animals do not "choose" not to reproduce. The fact that we are able to existentially look for reasoning and pick apart why we do things is what makes us intelligent animals. There is no deep reasoning though except for we do it to improve our race. We are the currently upgraded versions of our parents and our kids (if we choose) will be the upgraded versions of ourselves. Reproducing is the hope for a better human race some day. The most basic reasons we have children is because we are wired to do so.

Humans would stop existing if it wasn't for reproducing, we all have a shelf life you know! I know it is hard to see it sometimes, but life is really extremely beautiful and we are lucky to find our little slice of heaven in a universe that is so empty, cold and dangerous.

Your reasons why people have children, (FOR the child)
- not to be lonely (companionship goes both ways you know - AKA FAMILY, which with many families, builds community for all humans).
- so others won't mock or insult you, (the pressure to stay in a community/society in is a natural instinct to survival and it is not necessarily bad, I don't think a majority of people have children for this reason but it makes sense, everyone still has their own choice to do or not do it).
- to build a community, (it ["should", if its a healthy and strong one] keep humans going and evolving).
- for ritual purposes (again, its our nature as living things. It's very difficult to argue about the nature of life)
- to carry on the family's legacy (whatever it is) etc. (would be exciting and interesting to be the next torchbearer in a well documented legacy, [my families legacy is largely undocumented], many opportunities to right wrongs, break cycles, and do something new, interesting, and different and write your own family history).
Other things you said pretty much proves my point more that having kids is for the benefit of the parents and not for the child... An egg or a sperm are what they are and do not have the form of life we have and so it would be reasonable to conclude that they do not share our feelings which includes, love, survival, beauty etc... There isn't ANY reason to assume that they would want any part of life as humans.
Two possibilities exist... Either we are alone in the universe or we are not. Both are equally terrifying.
- Arthur C. Clarke

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Ormond
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Re: Is it wrong to have kids?

Post by Ormond » August 23rd, 2016, 4:46 am

Pages wrote:And uhmm... Pleasures of reality...? Like what?
This appears to be the real question of this thread. It may be hard for some to see, as it's hiding behind the Mother Theresa concern for the children stuff.
If the things we want to hear could take us where we want to go, we'd already be there.

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Empiricist-Bruno
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Re: Is it wrong to have kids?

Post by Empiricist-Bruno » August 23rd, 2016, 4:48 am

But what if it is the child that has children and this is for the benefit of the grand parents? Grand parents are children as well, aren't they?
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Re: Is it wrong to have kids?

Post by Pages » August 23rd, 2016, 5:25 am

Jsr wrote:...
Hmm... You are suggesting that my view is as a result of my lack of experience of having a child. That if I did the thought might gradually die out and I could begin to see the things that were not visible to me prior to having a child.

Well, that is true from a parental stand point. Then again, I can't think of a better way to experience being born as a "mistake" other than being THE child.
Do not make this about me.

-- Updated August 23rd, 2016, 5:35 am to add the following --
Ormond wrote:
Pages wrote:And uhmm... Pleasures of reality...? Like what?
This appears to be the real question of this thread. It may be hard for some to see, as it's hiding behind the Mother Theresa concern for the children stuff.
She was an optimist, not that there is anything wrong with that but, optimists tend to be less realistic on their view of life.

-- Updated August 23rd, 2016, 5:47 am to add the following --
Empiricist-Bruno wrote:But what if it is the child that has children and this is for the benefit of the grand parents? Grand parents are children as well, aren't they?
Haha... The only way that could be valid is if the great grand parents came back (as sons and daughters) through the grand parents and have kids. Then those kids could be for the benefit of the grandparents as a gift for their children (the grand parents) :roll:
Even at that, a kid is born with an extra person to benefit from all this haphazard, disordered and catastrophical process of procreation :D
Two possibilities exist... Either we are alone in the universe or we are not. Both are equally terrifying.
- Arthur C. Clarke

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Re: Is it wrong to have kids?

Post by Greta » August 23rd, 2016, 8:17 am

Lucylu wrote:Some people find retirement very difficult and are bored out of their minds, whereas I was born for it! I could quite happily potter around all day on my own, for all eternity. I have recently forced myself to get motivated by starting an access course, and hopefully going back to uni (for the second time) next year. That's going to be quite a shock to the system but I'm also really looking forward to it in a way. I'm taking a year to gear up to it and get everything in place though!
Any kind of work would be a shock to my system now :) I want to write but it seems like I can only write in online conversation!

I do think it's important to push ourselves out of our comfort zones, though, and will do so. Life is all about being pushed out of your comfort zones. I have found that staying in one's comfort zone becomes increasingly uncomfortable after a while; you lose confidence in your abilities through misuse, and your muscles get weak and fail to support the skeleton, with predictable pain. It seems the only lasting peace to be had in life is in death and, if many here are correct, not even then!

The question of the OP is ultimately a case of "it depends". If one is depressed, a junkie, poverty-stricken, living in danger, lazy, neglectful, irresponsible, cruel or mentally sick, then having kids would seem problematic. Otherwise it would seem to entirely be a matter of preference since the kids will at least have a reasonable chance at having a good life.

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