Is it wrong to have kids?

[Pages]

Well, I think there is something greater going on than we are aware of most of the time and that life can be really wonderful. I've disliked society and people in my time, but never life itself. I think nature is awesome and life is miraculous. Our hearts our beating away thousands of times a day, even in our sleep. How is that possible? What is that spark of life? Amazing!

Well, good for you... Maybe the ability to perceive life as awsome, beautiful, miraculous is a gift I have yet to receive...

It is actually a common part of depression to be in denial and not be able to see it- to believe what we feel is true and everyone else is blind. We might even think that other people just don't care as much as us or aren't as sensitive or intelligent as us. That's why we feel so deeply, and cant get through life..because we are superior! 'There's nothing wrong with me, its everybody else!!' Saying, 'nobody asked me if I wanted to be born' sounds a little like something a younger person might say when they have no control over their life. But I'm assuming you do have control over yours? If not, why not? Are you sure you aren't projecting you're own suffering on to other people's children?

I agree with Logic_ill- babies often just happen naturally when people are in the flow of life. Depression is the opposite to flow.

Uhmm... I wouldn't call the condition I'm in suffering. Far from it... I say again, it's not about me.
And uhmm... Animals procreate as an instinctive drive, humans must have sex, I'm not denying that. That's nature's course but, I'd like to think I can reason for a reason. What if one gives birth to an asthmatic child, or a child with heart problems, or a mute, or without limbs etc... (there are worse things) My concern is simply why gamble with the life that won't be yours? Why? Is there any reason that isn't selfish?

At the end of the day, if you really don't want to live then you don't have to, but really we don't live that long anyway and time gets faster as you get older. Just chill out, wait a few more summers and a few more winters and it'll be time to pop your clogs anyway! You may as well enjoy the ride. You're on it now.

There is a thick line between not being born and dying... A line as thick as the universe.

-- Updated August 20th, 2016, 7:41 pm to add the following --

Some people have kids because they like sex and sometimes things happen. When I married my 2nd wife I already had a son from the first marriage, and I told my wife having children was entirely up to her because I already had a son.

That's the question right there... Why is it up to her? It is not. I do not care of she sells all she has to take care of me. I didn't tell her to go through all that to bring me here. Why would she wanna do that?

Take time to think about why you had your son, be sincere to yourself and see if any of the reasons are for the son. You'd realize that all the reasons would be "...so I..." "...so we..." If you just wanna take care of someone or something, go adopt one or get a dog

A few years ago I read a lot of Zen, and I don't agree that living is all suffering, that has not been my experience, there is a lot more joy in my life than suffering. But maybe I'm just not looking for the bad things in life.

Suffering isn't just not having food to eat and clothes to put on there are lot of psychological or emotional suffering also.
Amd before someone assumes it again... I am not suffering from a go-see-a-shrink depression

-- Updated August 20th, 2016, 7:51 pm to add the following --

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The only thing the living have is their life experiences, some may be good, bad or somewhere in between. No matter what, it will some day end but life was experienced and most people would rather have that, than nothing at all.

I believe by "nothing" you meant not being born. How can you prefer life to nonexistence when you have no experience of how the state of nonexistence is?

-- Updated August 20th, 2016, 7:55 pm to add the following --

I note that those who can guarantee their child a short, difficult and painful life are having large families while those capable of providing a much better life for children are increasingly remaining childless.

True... You'd wonder

[Logic_ill]

I'm supposing non existence is not living, non experiencing. The closest experience I've had to that was when I was under general anaesthesia. I also experience it in deep sleep, I suppose. This in no way means I've rxperienced non existence, but if it is anything like it, then I prefer to have experienced life, or at least I think I do.

The gambling parents do with a future child's life is very much a part of life. People gamble with their own lives all the time They can have accidents, get preventable diseases, or risk their lives in many ways. Even a mother to be can die during labor.

Why gamble by conceiving and giving birth to a child? Because the parents may not have planned their pregnancy but decided that they were not going to terminate it. So many things can go wrong with anything in life, but they more frequently turn out right. Nowadays, life is safer. It doesn't mean each and everyone of us is going to always be lucky but we get used to it, when we are not. It depends much on our expectations, definitions, and values.

Those parents who did plan their children might not have all done so for "selfish" reasons but even if they did, it's up to the person in question to learn how to cope with life, now that s/he's alive. The child will eventually grow up and can thwart the selfish parental plans whenever s/he finds it fit. A person can seek refuge or help in people other than those that make him/her uncomfortable or unhappy.

But I understand people who don't want to have children. Life is plagued with uncertainties. Some may not want to have them for many other reasons. That's fine too.

[Jsr]

"I know that everyone is selfish..."....

Let us first understand what is "selfishness". (1) I want to have everything, all the good in the world only to myself (2) I want to be the most honored person wherever I go or wherever I am present (3) I want to be indisputable winner in whatever I compete, be it sport or business or romance or anything I act on (4) I want to remain healthy, wealthy and a very long age..... Well like this we can keep on adding to this list. The one thing that is common to selfishness is "Absence of Suffering"..... I do not want to suffer at any point in time in my life, it should be cake like a cake walk all through my life.

Till now we talked only about individual or self. Now lets extend the selfishness beyond self or so to say the impact of others on us. Lets list those that make up selfishness (1) I do not want to suffer because of another person, that is, if any one in my family or relatives or friends suffer because of some reason or the other that should not bring any suffering to me. (2) I am sitting in my balcony and a funeral procession pass by, I feel uncomfortable because it reminds me about death and the feeling of discomfort lingers for at least for the time being. Though discomfort is not acute suffering but it is definitely not equipoise or happiness, so obviously it comes under suffering......... Well like this we can keep on adding to this list.

Suffering is either Physical or Mental and no human want to suffer from either of the two.

In your reply to "Lucylu" you had mentioned that "I'm going through a rough time because I see kids suffering and I can't help them. So, that makes me wonder why they are even born"

FIRST WAY OF THINKING

From your answer we can conclude that the cause for your suffering (lets call it selfishness) is your inability to help the suffering kids. So you are supposing that if no kids are born then there is no chance of any kid to suffer and hence you will also not suffer because there wont be any suffering kids!!!

Let us assume for the time being that there are no kids in this world and there are only adults. Now there will obviously be lot of suffering adults and you will come to know of them and again you will start to suffer because they are suffering and to end your suffering you may suppose that there should be no adults!!

Let us assume that there are no kids and no adults but only 'you'. Now you may feel lonely or you may get headache or a simple fever or some simple ailment which will make you to suffer. Now to end this suffering should you end your life??

So, just because you do not want to suffer (1) you don't want any kids in this world (2) you may not want any adults in this world & (3) You may not want your own self to exist and hence you can escape from any kind of suffering!!!

THE SECOND WAY OF THINKING

Your very premise "everyone is selfish..."... is not correct because you have applied selfishness to be absolute in each and every activity of any person and restricted to just that person's activites. But....

Assume I have no family, relatives or friends. I am utmost selfish till I am an individual but the moment I seek a partner or get married my selfishness expands to include my life partner/spouse. If my spouse happens to have a family, relatives and friends then my selfishness will further expand to include my spouse's family, relatives and friends. Now my spouse and I decide to have two kids, now my selfishness expands further to include my kids. In fact I become more selfish not about my body or my thoughts but about my two kids. Obviously now my first circle of selfishness will be my spouse, two kids and myself and the second and then the third, fourth, fifth etc circles will envelop to include relatives, friends, neighbors etc. Once my two kids grow, marry and have kids then my daughter in laws and grand kids will join my first circle of my selfishness.

Now what started off as I, as an individual, has now grown to many!! So my selfishness is only growing!!! And my selfishness with its growth is enveloping many individuals!!! And these individuals have their own circle constituting many other individuals!! And if I have 10 individuals in my circle then I have 10 different circles overlapping each other in some way or the other and over all my circle is far bigger than just the 10 individuals in my circle!! And another person may have 20 individuals in his circle and hence he will have 20 different circles overlapping each other and will have bigger circle then mine!!!

Now if you compare the First way of thinking and Second way of thinking, you will notice that in the First way of thinking selfishness is centered around only one individual as he keeps alienating one person after another and at last left with himself but still sadness is only increasing because that individual is unable to comprehended and accept sufferings.

While in the Second way of thinking, an individual's selfishness is growing beyond his self and extends to as many number of people as he has in his circle. Though everyone in his circle at some point or the other suffer, however they are able to share the sufferings with each other and accept sufferings as part and parcel of life and also as they are sharing the impact of suffering is greatly reduced and instead of succumbing to the sufferings they look ahead to solve the sufferings!!!

Instead of worrying about the sufferings if we work towards solving the sufferings, the very effort to solve will make us stronger.

As you would be aware Gold Glitter only after undergoing rigorous cleansing like wise we Shall Glitter only after overcoming our sufferings.

If every individual resolve to solve the sufferings then there won't be any sufferings left.... However we cannot make others to resolve to work towards solving the sufferings but I as an individual can definitely resolve to work towards solving my sufferings by helping to reduce the sufferings of others, though I may not completely solve every problem I come across but at least I reduce the suffering by giving a patient hearing!! By practicing this I shall definitely become stronger and most importantly selfless, then the question to have or not have kids becomes irrelevant because when I can grow stronger and grow selfless I am sure my kids shall also grow stronger and also grow selfless.

In here I am not looking any suffering as mine or his or theirs or someone else but look at suffering as suffering.

As I expand myself as mentioned in Second way of thinking, my selfishness gets greatly reduces or to put it in other words I just do not confine myself to just me but me+family+relatives+friends+neighbors+city+state+country+world....... my selfishness become very large.

In short it all boils down to make myself selfless.

To become selfless one Should Not just think about the benefit that accrues to oneself from ones own action but Should Think about the benefit that will accrue from ones own action to his bigger self, that is, this world.

To become selfless I should be responsible and make myself accountable for each and every action I commit

[Lucylu]

Well, good for you... Maybe the ability to perceive life as awsome, beautiful, miraculous is a gift I have yet to receive...

No, I wouldn't say its a gift. I've worked hard at it and still do. Its a life skill you can develop with practice but obviously you have to want to change and actually do the 'work' consistently. Its more about taking responsibility for your own feelings and thoughts, and focusing on the positive and the little things. Its much easier to be negative- that's the lowest common denominator, if you like. Anybody can be negative. No matter how poor and ill they are, they can try to take power over their situation in a limited way by slagging off life or some other person or some circumstance. But real power comes from action and the energy you put in comes back multiplied.

You're very reticent about explaining your pessimism, and I still think that changes in your life would change your focus on the negative.

What if one gives birth to an asthmatic child, or a child with heart problems, or a mute, or without limbs etc... (there are worse things) My concern is simply why gamble with the life that won't be yours? Why? Is there any reason that isn't selfish?

People with disabilities can still live fulfilling lives! If you're not depressed, then your pessimism is down to personality, and so someone who is disabled could potentially enjoy life much more than you. They might say you were being wasteful and complacent with your healthy body- an enormous gift!

Overall, there are three main parts to this for me:

1. No one is forcing you to have a child, so simply don't have one.

2. You are judging others for their life choices when really, its none of your business, just the same as someone else shouldn't judge you for not having kids.

3. You are trying to argue with something that just is, which is a waste of time.

What would your solution be? That everyone stop having kids on purpose and the human race die out? How likely is that?

[Pages]

No, I wouldn't say its a gift. I've worked hard at it and still do. Its a life skill you can develop with practice but obviously you have to want to change and actually do the 'work' consistently. Its more about taking responsibility for your own feelings and thoughts, and focusing on the positive and the little things. Its much easier to be negative- that's the lowest common denominator, if you like. Anybody can be negative. No matter how poor and ill they are, they can try to take power over their situation in a limited way by slagging off life or some other person or some circumstance. But real power comes from action and the energy you put in comes back multiplied.

You're very reticent about explaining your pessimism, and I still think that changes in your life would change your focus on the negative.

People with disabilities can still live fulfilling lives! If you're not depressed, then your pessimism is down to personality, and so someone who is disabled could potentially enjoy life much more than you. They might say you were being wasteful and complacent with your healthy body- an enormous gift!

Overall, there are three main parts to this for me:

1. No one is forcing you to have a child, so simply don't have one.

2. You are judging others for their life choices when really, its none of your business, just the same as someone else shouldn't judge you for not having kids.

3. You are trying to argue with something that just is, which is a waste of time.

What would your solution be? That everyone stop having kids on purpose and the human race die out? How likely is that?

Well, I appreciate your engagement... But we would continue to be on different pages as long as you continue to think it's about me.
It seems you'd never see things the way I do... Not that there's anything wrong with that but, it means my conversation with you is over on the matter. (no offence)
Thank you

[Vijaydevani]

I know that everyone is selfish in a right or wrong way but, it is wrongly selfish to have kids. Here is why

For all we know, life is just a journey to the grave. The reason why we even attach any form of moral to it is because more than one person exists.

There are a lot of reasons why people have children, non of which is FOR the child
- not to be lonely (companionship)
- so others won't mock or insult you,
- to build a community,
- for ritual purposes
- to carry on the family's legacy (whatever it is) etc.

Look at the world today, conjure your sympathetic side and tell me if any kid deserves to be here.
From the beginning of life till the end is just sorrow. Exception might be
Your parents are very wealthy and you don't care about others. If not, you would realize that you still can't save the world and that too is depressing. Even if you are wealthy you are going to have to deal with the fact that you are gonna die and there's nothing you can do about it.
It doesn't matter whether you are rich or not, there is a possibility of giving birth to a psychopath, terrorist, rapist etc. but, the parents are too blinded by their selfishness that they're willing to risk it.

And for the record, I wish I was never born
Life isn't worth living.
Your parents sat down and made decisions of whether to have you or not but, who asked you if you wanted to come or not?
It isn't fair to have kids. 

There are two parts to your post. One is whether it is wrong to have kids. I have two and I now believe it was wrong to have them. Like you said, there is a higher risk of having a life full of suffering than a good one so if one really wants to protect kids, one should not create them at all. I think antinatalism has got it right.

There is the other side to your post. Whether life is worth living once you have been born. For that, I think we have two options. Either crib about it or accept it and live the best life we can as long as we are alive. There is, after all, a lot of beauty in this world too. So instead of focusing on the bad part of life, if we focus on the good parts, things can get pretty enjoyable too. The fact is, reality is not going to change. So might as well just make the most of it and enjoy life. It is a choice you have to make. Either feel bad or feel good. Since reality is going to relentlessly move on, I choose the latter. Ignore the bad parts of life and focus on the good. It is pretty great that way.

[Lucylu]

Well, I appreciate your engagement... But we would continue to be on different pages as long as you continue to think it's about me.
It seems you'd never see things the way I do... Not that there's anything wrong with that but, it means my conversation with you is over on the matter. (no offence)
Thank you

No worries. For the record, if you say you aren't depressed, I'll take your word for it. I'm not suggesting your view is wrong, per se, just that it is subjective and individual. What I disagree with is extrapolating your personal life view to the whole population. If you can agree that other people think differently about life than you- e.g. they may really enjoy life and think its wonderful, then that would explain why they want to have children- out of love and sharing something wonderful with them. And you do admit that others think differently than you, so you have your answer.

There, I've said my piece.

[Sy Borg]

Well, good for you... Maybe the ability to perceive life as awsome, beautiful, miraculous is a gift I have yet to receive...

No, I wouldn't say its a gift. I've worked hard at it and still do. Its a life skill you can develop with practice but obviously you have to want to change and actually do the 'work' consistently. Its more about taking responsibility for your own feelings and thoughts, and focusing on the positive and the little things. Its much easier to be negative- that's the lowest common denominator, if you like. Anybody can be negative. No matter how poor and ill they are, they can try to take power over their situation in a limited way by slagging off life or some other person or some circumstance. But real power comes from action and the energy you put in comes back multiplied.

Research would seem to back you up, Lucy

[Lucylu]

Research would seem to back you up, Lucy

Interesting video- thanks Greta. Its my pet theory lately that we can learn almost anything, and its only when we stop learning or disrespect learning that we become stuck and negative.

Re the video, its interesting that 'reversible choices are incompatible with synthetic happiness', especially given that we live in a world of choice and freedom these days. I like that 'synthetic' happiness is just as potent as the real happiness we chase when we chase experiences.

-- Updated August 21st, 2016, 7:36 pm to add the following --

*when we choose experiences.

[Felix]

Is it wrong to have kids?

Yes, if you are an unmarried goat.

[Sy Borg]

Research would seem to back you up, Lucy

Interesting video- thanks Greta. Its my pet theory lately that we can learn almost anything, and its only when we stop learning or disrespect learning that we become stuck and negative.

Re the video, its interesting that 'reversible choices are incompatible with synthetic happiness', especially given that we live in a world of choice and freedom these days. I like that 'synthetic' happiness is just as potent as the real happiness we chase when we choose experiences.

It's one of my favourite TED Talks, along with Jill Bolte Taylor's.

Many are at their most focused and functional when presented with deadlines. Freedom can overwhelm us with choice. It's an issue I've been wrestling with since retirement because I would rather not restrict my freedom to "force" myself to do things but to muster it from within. So far I have been found wanting

Yes, if the happiness created by shaping perceptions is as efficacious as happiness created by getting what you want, then we have some power over our happiness. The problem is one of control; easier said than done!

[Ormond]

No, I wouldn't say its a gift. I've worked hard at it and still do. Its a life skill you can develop with practice but obviously you have to want to change and actually do the 'work' consistently.

I agree with this enthusiastically, but....

We should grant the point that people are born with more, or less, natural ability in such things.

I have two nieces, twenty somethings. One has been hysterical and melodramatic literally since the day she was born. Literally. The other has always been calm, peaceful, agreeable, everybody's pal. Both are intelligent, both have advanced degrees, same parents, same household. One got perpetual crisis DNA, the other calm and happy DNA.

So Pages has a point that having kids is a roll of the dice. You have a point that this thread is really about her situation, and not the abstraction called children.

Like most of you, I was born with philosopher typist DNA. My wife was born with wisdom compassion DNA. I can write sagely sermons on love like nobody's business, my wife can actually love. We're both incurably compelled to follow the destiny we played no part in choosing.

[Pages]

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I think some conventional applications of the word "selfishness" are flawed...
The inception of our intentions that turn out to be actions are our own decisions. What we want. And whether those intentions are good or not it becomes our priority at that point.
One definition of Selfishness is "concerned with one's personal profit or pleasure" profit means benefit or gain. Gain contextually means to increase whatever it is that drives one to commit an act... Satisfaction, happiness, sadness, hatred, love, etc.
That was why I said everybody is selfish but, with difference in what drives one.

I agree with what you said but, isn't it negligence if we continue procreating so they could come and join us in trying to solve suffering, despite you and I know it is something that won't go away?

[Above us only sky]

Just quote the words on this topic from a friend I met online:

The whole process seems idiotic.

Make a lot of money so you can attract a conservative gold-digger wife
She has a baby, the baby whines 24/7 and keeps you awake at night.
Both of you are too busy to take care of the baby, so it just goes to daycare.
It is stuck in school, for 9 hours chained to a desk where it is not allowed to speak.
During this time it is bullied, rejected, and exposed to all sorts of negative, angsty, depressing things.
Then it is taught to go do a 9 to 5 job, to make more money, so it can attract a conservative gold-digger wife
to make more babies.
More babies are born, who work like a slave their whole lives, to make more babies, who work like a slave their whole lives.

What's your comments on it?

[Logic_ill]

Not every wife is a gold digger. I never married, but I was kind of like a wife and wasn't a gold digger. I also have children who may not turn out to be gold diggers.