Is it wrong to have kids?

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Ormond
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Re: Is it wrong to have kids?

Post by Ormond »

Greta wrote: I want to write but it seems like I can only write in online conversation!
I face the very same obstacle. I've been working online for 20 years, and have typed approximately 936 million billion words in that time, but I can't do a blog to save my life. I can code a blog publishing system (like Wordpress) and set it up to automatically create 2,983 blogs on a server, but I can't actually type a blog. Duh!! Without direct interaction, I simply can't write, period. With direct interaction, I can type at 700 wpm for 3 days straight without taking a breath.

A possible solution here might be have a blog or book partner. For example, Greta and myself might pick a topic and then go back and forth in a series of articles, each fueling the other's ego, energy, ideas etc. Basically, a forum reduced to a smaller more focused format.

Getting back on topic...
The question of the OP is ultimately a case of "it depends". If one is depressed, a junkie, poverty-stricken, living in danger, lazy, neglectful, irresponsible, cruel or mentally sick, then having kids would seem problematic. Otherwise it would seem to entirely be a matter of preference since the kids will at least have a reasonable chance at having a good life.
Even some perfectly healthy people simply aren't well suited to have kids. I know, because I'm one of those people. Kids need stability, and I'm addicted to creativity and change. I am amazed that I somehow knew this about myself in my twenties, a time when it seemed I literally did not know anything else at all, especially about myself. It seems it was one of those "gift" kind of things, a talent that could not be explained by logic.
If the things we want to hear could take us where we want to go, we'd already be there.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Is it wrong to have kids?

Post by Terrapin Station »

These antinatalist arguments always wind up hinging on views such as "From the beginning of life till the end is just sorrow." I'm in my 50s. I've known tons of people in my life. I've never met a single person who actually felt that life is primarily suffering or misery or anything like that. I don't doubt that people who feel that way exist, but it's certainly not most people. And people who do feel that way should seek counseling, because surely what's really going on is that they're suffering from depression or some such.
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A_Seagull
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Re: Is it wrong to have kids?

Post by A_Seagull »

Pages wrote:IAnd for the record, I wish I was never born
Life isn't worth living.

I am sorry to hear of your despondency. I suspect that it is caused by believing too many lies.
The Pattern Paradigm - yer can't beat it!
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Sy Borg
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Re: Is it wrong to have kids?

Post by Sy Borg »

Terrapin Station wrote:These antinatalist arguments always wind up hinging on views such as "From the beginning of life till the end is just sorrow." I'm in my 50s. I've known tons of people in my life. I've never met a single person who actually felt that life is primarily suffering or misery or anything like that. I don't doubt that people who feel that way exist, but it's certainly not most people. And people who do feel that way should seek counseling, because surely what's really going on is that they're suffering from depression or some such.
I've had a few debates on another forum with someone who agrees with antinatalism. He's not miserable, often upbeat, but he has observed suffering in all parts of nature and has figured that matter would have been better off if it never woke up. Nothing lost, nothing gained. No starvation, dehydration, grief and loss, sickness, deprivation, freezing, burning, war, torture, cruelty, dying or death.

Based on today's situation antinatalism is logical; non-existence would seem to not be a disaster, just nothing. The level of suffering of other animals in the wild is beyond belief. The number of people in the world who are experiencing lives that we'd find intolerable is also huge. Meanwhile, dying and death trump anything that one does in life; always having the final say.

I see suffering as the greatest challenge facing humankind. We have made extraordinary strides to this end, shaping our physical environments but this is clearly only part of the answer - the rest lies within our structuring and within our heads. Philosophical/spiritual approaches have been found to be useful to many, but far from failsafe due to our evolved limitations and exigencies.

Given the great, if deeply pitted, progress made by humanity so far as regards making life less harsh (if largely only for some of its own number), I am optimistic that life (I'm guessing post-human) can eventually satisfactorily solve problems related to suffering and sorrow. Early development is always tumultuous and painful, and the universe is only young as compared with its potential star-producing (and thus, life-fostering) life of around a trillion years.
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated—Gandhi.
Pages
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Re: Is it wrong to have kids?

Post by Pages »

A_Seagull wrote:
Pages wrote:IAnd for the record, I wish I was never born
Life isn't worth living.

I am sorry to hear of your despondency. I suspect that it is caused by believing too many lies.
No... By experience

-- Updated August 23rd, 2016, 7:35 pm to add the following --

And uhmm... Thank you...
The people who were trying to make this world worse are not taking the day off. Why should I?
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A_Seagull
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Re: Is it wrong to have kids?

Post by A_Seagull »

Pages wrote:
A_Seagull wrote: (Nested quote removed.)


I am sorry to hear of your despondency. I suspect that it is caused by believing too many lies.
No... By experience

-- Updated August 23rd, 2016, 7:35 pm to add the following --

And uhmm... Thank you...
Fair enough.. I am sure you are right.... except that experience can be tempered by belief and beliefs can be influenced by other people and other people don't always speak the truth.


I used to feel trapped and alienated and sad ..... I used to watch the seagulls flying and squawking and being free....... and I used to wonder why I could not, too, be free like them.... hence my moniker..
A_Seagull
The Pattern Paradigm - yer can't beat it!
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Above us only sky
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Re: Is it wrong to have kids?

Post by Above us only sky »

Here is a famous quote by Schopenhauer on this very topic
If children were brought into the world by an act of pure reason alone, would the human race continue to exist? Would not a man rather have so much sympathy with the coming generation as to spare it the burden of existence, or at any rate not take it upon himself to impose that burden upon it in cold blood?
Is he right? why?

Let's view this topic from another perspective:
An important part of growing-up for a child is to learn the rules and norms of human society whether that child wants to learn it or not or whether those rules and norms are evil. In other words, there are evils in this world, and a child has to learn some of the evils and be part of some evils if he wants to survive at all, in this process, the purity of a child which we adults admires so often is gradually lost.

The great French philosopher Voltaire put it this way:
We shall leave this world as foolish and as wicked as we found it on our arrival.
If this is so, we are justified to ask this question:" Do we have to give birth to a child so she has to go through this process ?"
Pages
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Re: Is it wrong to have kids?

Post by Pages »

No, we do not need to. As a matter of fact we do not have the right to. But what do I know, everybody seems to be a nurturing expert and a psychic when you tell them having a child is wrong.
The people who were trying to make this world worse are not taking the day off. Why should I?
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Felix
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Re: Is it wrong to have kids?

Post by Felix »

Pages wrote: And for the record, I wish I was never born.
That's not a record I would buy. Your attitude is evidence that you were never born (spiritually). "He that is not busy being born is busy dying." - Bob Dylan

You may want to consider what aspect of not being born appeals to you.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin
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Above us only sky
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Re: Is it wrong to have kids?

Post by Above us only sky »

Felix wrote:
Pages wrote: And for the record, I wish I was never born.
That's not a record I would buy. Your attitude is evidence that you were never born (spiritually). "He that is not busy being born is busy dying." - Bob Dylan

You may want to consider what aspect of not being born appeals to you.
Hi, Felix, what's your comment on Schopenhauer's words? Do you agree that a child should not born to go though the process of becoming as wicked as the world?
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Felix
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Re: Is it wrong to have kids?

Post by Felix »

Well, AUOS, first off, Mr. Schopenhauer was known to be "the glass is half empty" kind of guy.

Let's examine his statement:

"If children were brought into the world by an act of pure reason alone"

This suggests that Schopenhauer believes reason alone is a reliable guide in life. If the world was a completely reasonable place, I suppose that would be true, but it's not. And would you even want that: a world where everything is reasonable and there are no surprises?

"Would not a man rather have so much sympathy with the coming generation as to spare it the burden of existence, or at any rate not take it upon himself to impose that burden upon it in cold blood?"

The assumption here is that life is a burden, an unfit environment for existence, and therefore nonexistence is preferable. But if you'd never existed, you couldn't even choose between existence and nonexistence. Isn't it better to have a choice than to have none? As a human being, regardless of how miserable you are or you may think you are, you have more choices than any other life form on this planet. In fact you can even choose not to conceive of life as a burden or be a burden to others. How is nonexistence preferable to that?

And the correct answer to the problem of life is actually: "If children were brought into the world by an act of pure love alone"

.... the human race would continue to not only exist but to thrive.

I once read an interview with J. Krishnamurti in which he said, "only a mentally ill person would commit suicide." I thought to myself, "wow, that's a harsh indictment." But it's really just a statement of fact because if you'll dive deep down into the core of your being (as he did), you'll find there's no one there to assassinate. Why not at least make the effort, what have you got to lose? Everyone will arrive at death's door eventually, why be in a hurry to get there? Take your time, enjoy the journey - or don't enjoy it - it's up to you.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin
Steve3007
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Re: Is it wrong to have kids?

Post by Steve3007 »

OP:
There are a lot of reasons why people have children, non of which is FOR the child
- not to be lonely (companionship)
- so others won't mock or insult you,
- to build a community,
- for ritual purposes
- to carry on the family's legacy (whatever it is) etc.
You seem to have omitted the most obvious reason. I didn't have kids for any of the above reasons (having children to avoid being mocked seems a particularly odd one). I did it because my genes told me to.
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LuckyR
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Re: Is it wrong to have kids?

Post by LuckyR »

Steve3007 wrote:OP:
There are a lot of reasons why people have children, non of which is FOR the child
- not to be lonely (companionship)
- so others won't mock or insult you,
- to build a community,
- for ritual purposes
- to carry on the family's legacy (whatever it is) etc.
You seem to have omitted the most obvious reason. I didn't have kids for any of the above reasons (having children to avoid being mocked seems a particularly odd one). I did it because my genes told me to.
If kid-having was not preceded by the sex part, there'd be way, way less people on the planet. Just sayin'
"As usual... it depends."
Woodart
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Re: Is it wrong to have kids?

Post by Woodart »

Bruno Bettelheim made the statement ( I cannot find where) that not having children is like missing art or music.
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Gabrielbtst
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Re: Is it wrong to have kids?

Post by Gabrielbtst »

It's wrong not to have children.
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