The claim that anything is "unnatural" is false.

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Trentluv
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The claim that anything is "unnatural" is false.

Post by Trentluv »

People often make a distinction between nature and things that are man made, saying man made things are separate from nature, as if we've been placed inside nature - separate from it. I argue that since man, along with everything else came from (and is a part) of nature, everything conceivable, including man made concepts and our physical manifestations are also a part of nature. Here are a few observations and random thoughts that are consistent with this argument.

1. The universe naturally generates self aware creatures. They don't come from somewhere else. Being comparatively intelligent to other self aware agents doesn't make a creature exempt from nature.
2. Nothing has been observed to be inserted into nature by a third party.
3. A bird's nest is considered to be naturally occurring, even though birds' nests don't exist without a bird constructing it first. If a bird creates a nest that includes a man-made rubber band, it doesn't automatically become unnatural.
4. Extremely complicated man made products were never constructed outside the laws of physics or with elements outside of nature.
5. Being self aware doesn't separate something from nature, and is rather just a conscious manifestation of nature itself.
6. It is egotistical to consider one's self to be considered separate from nature.
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Sy Borg
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Re: The claim that anything is "unnatural" is false.

Post by Sy Borg »

Yes. It's all nature, all of the cosmos. The anthropocentric idea that humanity and its works are not "natural" first seemed to stem from the ancients who believed humans to be divine, above nature.
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated—Gandhi.
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Re: The claim that anything is "unnatural" is false.

Post by Vijaydevani »

If it were unnatural, it simply wouldn't occur in nature, would it?
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Re: The claim that anything is "unnatural" is false.

Post by Alias »

No real problem there. The question is purely semantic, as it hinges on the word "nature" and the quibble is over what's inside and outside of the meaning of nature as used by any particular speaker. Change the category titles and the problem goes away.
Instead of Natural and Artificial, you can distinguish between the accidental and deliberate or the grown and the made or simply Human/Other.
But then, one wouldn't have any grounds for defending destructive human actions as natural and therefore okay.

At the point in its history when agriculture began, humankind diverged from the rest of the animals and gradually turned against the ecosystem from which it had arisen. From that point on, whatever man made was quite distinct from, and inimical to, whatever was done and made by other animals. Over 100,000 years, this enmity has grown and inexorably led up to the end-game, the final conflict that will end both nature and man.
If the mega-vulcano erupts, or the meteor gets here first, nature wins. If the nuclear war breaks out or warming burns up all the vegetation, man wins.
Place your bets.
Those who can induce you to believe absurdities can induce you to commit atrocities. - Voltaire
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Re: The claim that anything is "unnatural" is false.

Post by TSBU »

I'm tired of saying that XD.

Specially when it comes to "human nature", if it happens, it is nature.
There are things that are more common, that's true, but some people pretend to be truth, that only "not thinking before acting" is human nature, things like that, and if you think, then you are acting "against your own nature".

I've started to say that I'm not human XD.
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Re: The claim that anything is "unnatural" is false.

Post by Terrapin Station »

From one angle I agree with you, Trentluv, but I think the "natural/artificial" distinction is useful. I want to know if something is artificial rather than natural leather, for example.
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Sy Borg
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Re: The claim that anything is "unnatural" is false.

Post by Sy Borg »

Terrapin Station wrote:From one angle I agree with you, Trentluv, but I think the "natural/artificial" distinction is useful. I want to know if something is artificial rather than natural leather, for example.
Than again, that's basically wanting to know what something is made from and whether it's been ethically sourced.
Alias wrote:Instead of Natural and Artificial, you can distinguish between the accidental and deliberate or the grown and the made or simply Human/Other.
But then, one wouldn't have any grounds for defending destructive human actions as natural and therefore okay.
I would suggest that "spiralling ever more out of our control" would be a better description of the human endeavour ATM, which is actually nature's endeavour. This is what nature does, every now and then it goes through rapid changes. As with metamorphosis, old forms are destroyed and replaced with new ones and a new relative equilibrium will ensure.

Every generation has assumed that they are 1) the pinnacle - as far as life can possibly go - and 2) doomed due to unsustainability. They were basically saying the same thing in Revelations, albeit with exciting mythological imagery. Every generation has been wrong.
Alias wrote:At the point in its history when agriculture began, humankind diverged from the rest of the animals and gradually turned against the ecosystem from which it had arisen. From that point on, whatever man made was quite distinct from, and inimical to, whatever was done and made by other animals. Over 100,000 years, this enmity has grown and inexorably led up to the end-game, the final conflict that will end both nature and man.
Compare humanity with imaginal discs: https://www.google.com.au/?gws_rd=ssl#q=imaginal+discs
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated—Gandhi.
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Re: The claim that anything is "unnatural" is false.

Post by Empiricist-Bruno »

Trentluv,

I generally disagree with your idea, overall. In my opinion anything that is mind-made is unnatural.

A nest may be considered natural along with a spider's web but to me, that just means people are confused about what is and what is not natural. I feel pretty sure that a nest and a web are unnatural creations. Even our bodies are not natural because they develop according to genetic plans and these plans are not natural as they represent a beginning of consciousness, a beginning of minding, even if it is not conscious.

I think that if you believe that life is free, then it can't be naturally occurring. To me what is natural has nothing to do with human nature. Say you say me, say we together, naturally. LOL.

Only rocks rocks are natural, along with volcanoes, earthquakes planets and stars, etc.

A mind cannot be found in nature and so it has to be considered unnatural along with its products.
Watch out for the hidden paradoxes around you!
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Re: The claim that anything is "unnatural" is false.

Post by Alias »

Or, you could classify things according to what they're made of: compostile or recylable.
Why does this matter?
Those who can induce you to believe absurdities can induce you to commit atrocities. - Voltaire
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Re: The claim that anything is "unnatural" is false.

Post by Apex_Predator »

Its not false. You're not understanding the definition, the reason for it and the usefulness of identifying things as natural or man made.
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Re: The claim that anything is "unnatural" is false.

Post by LuckyR »

This thread is mainly revolving around the fact that many use the term "natural" when they mean "naturally occurring" (as opposed to man made). This is just a verbal shortcut, most who use it know that the meaning is somewhat different than the wording.
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Sy Borg
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Re: The claim that anything is "unnatural" is false.

Post by Sy Borg »

Apex_Predator wrote:Its not false. You're not understanding the definition, the reason for it and the usefulness of identifying things as natural or man made.
Just about everyone aged over five understands that definition. That number may even include philosophy buffs.

This is about the assumption that is often made that humans and their works are not natural, not part of the Earth but an outside or corrupted agent antithetical to an assumed natural order.
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated—Gandhi.
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Re: The claim that anything is "unnatural" is false.

Post by Alias »

The distinction, and the discussion, make sense only if they have a purpose.
Why does it matter?
Once you put the question in some context, you can come up with a more appropriate definition.
Those who can induce you to believe absurdities can induce you to commit atrocities. - Voltaire
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BardoXV
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Re: The claim that anything is "unnatural" is false.

Post by BardoXV »

There is a member of my congregation who claims that people are not animals, but to extend that reasoning you would claim there were natural things, and unnatural things. The unnatural things are presumably made by man. I don't agree with him, but since he is an older and long time member, I didn't say anything, I didn't want to start an argument, there are quite a few people who think like he does.
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Re: The claim that anything is "unnatural" is false.

Post by Nick_A »

Trentluv wrote:People often make a distinction between nature and things that are man made, saying man made things are separate from nature, as if we've been placed inside nature - separate from it. I argue that since man, along with everything else came from (and is a part) of nature, everything conceivable, including man made concepts and our physical manifestations are also a part of nature. Here are a few observations and random thoughts that are consistent with this argument.

1. The universe naturally generates self aware creatures. They don't come from somewhere else. Being comparatively intelligent to other self aware agents doesn't make a creature exempt from nature.
2. Nothing has been observed to be inserted into nature by a third party.
3. A bird's nest is considered to be naturally occurring, even though birds' nests don't exist without a bird constructing it first. If a bird creates a nest that includes a man-made rubber band, it doesn't automatically become unnatural.
4. Extremely complicated man made products were never constructed outside the laws of physics or with elements outside of nature.
5. Being self aware doesn't separate something from nature, and is rather just a conscious manifestation of nature itself.
6. It is egotistical to consider one's self to be considered separate from nature.
There are no straight lines in nature. A straight line has to be a conscious creation. Does that make it unnatural?
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
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