The Unknown vs Belief (fhe known)

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Eaglerising
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The Unknown vs Belief (fhe known)

Post by Eaglerising »

Is belief necessary? What are the limitations of belief? Opposing beliefs create conflict. On the other hand, the unknown is free of conflict. Is the absence of belief (not knowing) a viable alternative to believing? In other words, is there an advantage to approaching everything from the "unknown" rather than the "known"?
Fooloso4
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Re: The Unknown vs Belief (fhe known)

Post by Fooloso4 »

What you are describing is skepticism. There are various forms of skepticism, but at its most basic it a recognition of our ignorance. I do not think it possible to be without belief, but we can be aware that what we believe may be wrong. On the other hand, there are many things that can be doubted, but the ability to doubt is not good reason to doubt. We could not live if we doubted everything.
Eaglerising
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Re: The Unknown vs Belief (fhe known)

Post by Eaglerising »

What I am describing and inquiring about has nothing to skepticism. Skepticism is one form of knowledge doubting and/or challenging another, whether it's a thought, concept, theory, statement, or belief. Thus, skepticism deals with the "known."

You will continue to think, perceive or believe that it is impossible to be without belief until you consciously experience the absence of it. Knowledge is incapable to seeing, examining, and challenging itself. Just as your hand needs something other than itself to see and examine itself. The absence of thought, knowledge, and belief (the unknown) is capable of seeing, examining, and challenging the known.

Personally, I view things as a "possibility" that needs to be examined. I am either in a state of "don't knowing" or understanding. I also realize what I understand is continually changing and evolving. Finally, your perception of "doubt" is based upon the known, just as your perception of belief is.
Fooloso4
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Re: The Unknown vs Belief (fhe known)

Post by Fooloso4 »

Eaglerising:

What I am describing and inquiring about has nothing to skepticism. Skepticism is one form of knowledge doubting and/or challenging another, whether it's a thought, concept, theory, statement, or belief. Thus, skepticism deals with the "known."

Perhaps the following will help:
The Greek word skepsis means investigation. By calling themselves skeptics, the ancient skeptics thus describe themselves as investigators. They also call themselves ‘those who suspend’, thereby signaling that their investigations lead them to suspension of judgment. They do not put forward theories, and they do not deny that knowledge can be found. At its core, ancient skepticism is a way of life devoted to inquiry. It is as much concerned with belief as with knowledge. As long as knowledge has not been attained, the skeptics aim not to affirm anything. This gives rise to their most controversial ambition: a life without belief. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/skepticism-ancient/
And:
Pyrrhonian skepticism involves having no beliefs about philosophical, scientific, or theoretical matters—and according to some interpreters, no beliefs at all, period. Whereas modern skepticism questions the possibility of knowledge, Pyrrhonian skepticism questions the rationality of belief: the Pyrrhonian skeptic has the skill of finding for every argument an equal and opposing argument, a skill whose employment will bring about suspension of judgment on any issue which is considered by the skeptic, and ultimately, tranquillity.
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/sextus-empiricus/
Eaglerising
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Re: The Unknown vs Belief (fhe known)

Post by Eaglerising »

Thanks Fooloso4 for added clarity on skepticism. It's nice that I now have a term or label (Pyrrhonian skepticism) for how I see things.

Labels such as skepticism, Pyrrhonian skepticism, and stoicism define different perspectives and make it easier to communicate. On the other hand, I find them to stagnate and limiting rather than fluid and unlimited. I am thankful for your post.
Fooloso4
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Re: The Unknown vs Belief (fhe known)

Post by Fooloso4 »

Labels such as skepticism, Pyrrhonian skepticism, and stoicism define different perspectives and make it easier to communicate. On the other hand, I find them to stagnate and limiting rather than fluid and unlimited. I am thankful for your post.
Wittgenstein said:
The language used by philosophers is already deformed, as though by shoes that are too tight (CV 47)
In just the way that it is difficult to walk if one’s shoes are too tight, it is difficult to think if one is restricted by a language that does not fit. Although Wittgenstein was referring to demands made on language by philosophers, I think the metaphor can be extended. There are terms I hesitate to use because they carry several meanings (see the second sentence of my first post) and can all too easily lead to misunderstanding. Given the theme of your topic, one might say that conflict and misunderstanding can arise because the person reading or listening believes they know what a term means, and they may not be wrong in that the term does mean this, but wrong in so far as that is not what the other person meant.
Eaglerising
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Re: The Unknown vs Belief (fhe known)

Post by Eaglerising »

Foolosq4, once again I thank you for you enlightening post. You're an exceptionally rare bird, probably one in million. Over the course of my life I have interviewed some of the brightest and sharpest minds in the U.S. in a wide variety of fields and occupations. I have meet and talked to thousands of people in the U.S. and Canada. You're one of the best. I wish I would have had the opportunity of meeting you in person. My Profoundest Peace, David
Fooloso4
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Re: The Unknown vs Belief (fhe known)

Post by Fooloso4 »

Eaglerising:
Foolosq4, once again I thank you for you enlightening post. You're an exceptionally rare bird, probably one in million. Over the course of my life I have interviewed some of the brightest and sharpest minds in the U.S. in a wide variety of fields and occupations. I have meet and talked to thousands of people in the U.S. and Canada. You're one of the best. I wish I would have had the opportunity of meeting you in person. My Profoundest Peace, David
Full disclosure: Eaglerising was paid handsomely for saying this. Thanks.
Lone Wolf
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Re: The Unknown vs Belief (fhe known)

Post by Lone Wolf »

Belief = Knowledge? There are some things that are knowledge and have been proven by empirical data. For example, the earth orbits the sun and the moon orbits the earth. Belief is in things for which there is no empirical data to prove such as the existence of God in the Christian religion. If you are Christian you accept that God exists on faith. A Christian knows in his being that this is a truth and claims it as knowledge, but it is still just a belief.

Because of an emotional realization, I believe in the existence of something beyond my ability to conceive that loves me, but I cannot prove it and therefore I cannot claim it as knowledge. Humans have a lot of knowledge about a myriad of physical things which are proven by scientific testing. A lot of it is true as long as it is contained in the box in which it is true, but if you take it out of it's box, does it remain true? This, of course, is a different subject so I won't belabor it here.

When it comes to unknowns, there are an infinite number of them. Among the more common is what happens when we die? Were we alive in a spiritual existence before joining a fetus or baby on this planet? If so, will we return to that spiritual existence when we die? Physical death may not be necessary because we have Jesus and Buddha who ascended and took their bodies with them or so we are told by people who believe these stories.

Perhaps it would be better to title this thread as The Unknown vs Belief vs Knowledge. As for me the only thing I can say I KNOW is that I AM. I only say this because I am aware of me. The knowledge gained through obtaining two college degrees served me well during my working life and I accept that knowledge as being true as long as I am alive in the physical world. Beyond that, everything I would like to think I know is really just belief.
Moreno
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Re: The Unknown vs Belief (fhe known)

Post by Moreno »

Eaglerising wrote:Is belief necessary? What are the limitations of belief? Opposing beliefs create conflict. On the other hand, the unknown is free of conflict. Is the absence of belief (not knowing) a viable alternative to believing? In other words, is there an advantage to approaching everything from the "unknown" rather than the "known"?
What does that work out to be in practice? Like at a zoning meeting or a discussion of curriculum content at a parent teacher's meeting or in a political argument about immigration?
Eaglerising
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Re: The Unknown vs Belief (fhe known)

Post by Eaglerising »

Moreno, that is a good question for several reasons. When I first heard about freedom form thought and the "quiet" mind, I thought you would be a zombie or very mechanical. Although the idea of it intrigued me for years. One day I admitted "I don't know anything about it or what it would be like." And, I approached it and investigated it from the unknown. About 6 months later, to my amazement, I realized I had gone most of the day without a single thought in my mind. When I someone talked to me, they had my total attention. I didn't even know how I would respond until I responded. I was able to perform my work and various tasks better with any thought. In a way it is like walking with a cup of coffee in you hand. If you think about spilling the coffee you usually do. On the other hand, if you don't think about it, you don't spill it.

Almost every hero when asked, why did you do this or that responds, "I didn't think about it, I just did it." Some will acknowledge they don't know how they did it. A few will say, it was a "choice less" action or it was the right thing to do, even though it was very dangerous.

There is a vast difference between functioning with thought or knowledge and functioning with consciousness. Observing the body allows you to see this. Our immune system functions with consciousness and isn't dependent upon thought or knowledge. The same applies to your digestive system. Do you have to think or remember to breath?

What I have said can be comprehended but NOT understood until it has been experienced.
Moreno
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Re: The Unknown vs Belief (fhe known)

Post by Moreno »

Eaglerising wrote:Moreno, that is a good question for several reasons. When I first heard about freedom form thought and the "quiet" mind, I thought you would be a zombie or very mechanical. Although the idea of it intrigued me for years. One day I admitted "I don't know anything about it or what it would be like." And, I approached it and investigated it from the unknown. About 6 months later, to my amazement, I realized I had gone most of the day without a single thought in my mind. When I someone talked to me, they had my total attention. I didn't even know how I would respond until I responded. I was able to perform my work and various tasks better with any thought. In a way it is like walking with a cup of coffee in you hand. If you think about spilling the coffee you usually do. On the other hand, if you don't think about it, you don't spill it
I have had these kinds of experiences though I would not say I had no thoughts. I might say I had no verbal chatter, no word based thoughts.
Almost every hero when asked, why did you do this or that responds, "I didn't think about it, I just did it."
What they mean is they did not stand there weighing the threats or choosing outcomes, but they had thoughts. They noticed a child in danger and concern arose, very quick planning took place, that man is threat and so on. Unless we restrict 'thought' to a very specific kind of ratiocination, thought is taking place in all these situations.
Some will acknowledge they don't know how they did it. A few will say, it was a "choice less" action or it was the right thing to do, even though it was very dangerous.

There is a vast difference between functioning with thought or knowledge and functioning with consciousness.
You are using 'consciousness' idiosyncratically, which is OK, but it will confuse most people. If I see a child in danger and think - I mean, very specifically have the thought - ****, someone should help that kid, but swimming out there I might go down from hypothermia and then I do it, I was both conscioius and thinking the whole time. In your system it seems like you have consciousness over here and thought over there, but the fact is they can be present at the same time and generally are. Now you are likely using consciousness in a specific way, meaning something like samadhi or in the zone or some other term from eastern religions or new age beliefs etc. But even here we can have both thought and consciousness.
Observing the body allows you to see this. Our immune system functions with consciousness and isn't dependent upon thought or knowledge. The same applies to your digestive system. Do you have to think or remember to breath?
Obviously not. But you can think just like this also. In fact if you meditate you will notice that thoughts are a lot like these other functions in that it simply happens.
What I have said can be comprehended but NOT understood until it has been experienced.
Well, again, to me comprehending is a synonym for understanding, but I can suss out the way you are adding your own idiosyncratic distinction. I would tend to argue that we move into the unknown using the known but not assuming it will remain unchanged. To simply go forward into the unknown while pretending one knows (and or believes) nothing, is to be a passive, reflex guided organism.
Moreno
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Re: The Unknown vs Belief (fhe known)

Post by Moreno »

i say that last because there is no reason to save that child without the knowledge undergirding empathy. The tacit knowledge in how to move the body is also necessary. It takes so much knowledge to save a drowning child from an icy river. Even if you have no word based thoughts at all, you work with huge swathes of knowledge or you will not reach that child.
Eaglerising
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Re: The Unknown vs Belief (fhe known)

Post by Eaglerising »

Moreno, now others and I know do you disagree with me. Like most people, you defend your perception rather then question and examine it. That is understandable because thought cannot observe or examine itself. Everything needs something different from itself to see, observe and examine itself. You cannot observe your face without some type of mirror. Your hand needs something other than itself to see itself. This indicates that thought and consciousness are different.
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Felix
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Re: The Unknown vs Belief (fhe known)

Post by Felix »

Eaglerising, you listed J. Krishnamurti as your favorite philosopher, and as you may know, one of his books is entitled Freedom from the Known, which could be translated as freedom from conditioned beliefs. If one examines one's beliefs and attitudes, one may find that the majority of them were not consciously chosen but are involuntary, i.e., they are the product of societal conditioning. J.K. suggested that by dispassionately observing these conditioned responses, one can begin to fathom and transcend them.

Also, it should be noted that Krishnamurti distinguished between purely technical or scientific knowledge such as, say, fixing a car or solving a math problem, and living knowledge such as the way in which one applies technical knowledge in life and interacts with other living beings. A few of the replies to your questions have confused these two realms of knowledge.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin
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