The Unknown vs Belief (fhe known)
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The Unknown vs Belief (fhe known)
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Re: The Unknown vs Belief (fhe known)
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Re: The Unknown vs Belief (fhe known)
You will continue to think, perceive or believe that it is impossible to be without belief until you consciously experience the absence of it. Knowledge is incapable to seeing, examining, and challenging itself. Just as your hand needs something other than itself to see and examine itself. The absence of thought, knowledge, and belief (the unknown) is capable of seeing, examining, and challenging the known.
Personally, I view things as a "possibility" that needs to be examined. I am either in a state of "don't knowing" or understanding. I also realize what I understand is continually changing and evolving. Finally, your perception of "doubt" is based upon the known, just as your perception of belief is.
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Re: The Unknown vs Belief (fhe known)
What I am describing and inquiring about has nothing to skepticism. Skepticism is one form of knowledge doubting and/or challenging another, whether it's a thought, concept, theory, statement, or belief. Thus, skepticism deals with the "known."
Perhaps the following will help:
And:The Greek word skepsis means investigation. By calling themselves skeptics, the ancient skeptics thus describe themselves as investigators. They also call themselves ‘those who suspend’, thereby signaling that their investigations lead them to suspension of judgment. They do not put forward theories, and they do not deny that knowledge can be found. At its core, ancient skepticism is a way of life devoted to inquiry. It is as much concerned with belief as with knowledge. As long as knowledge has not been attained, the skeptics aim not to affirm anything. This gives rise to their most controversial ambition: a life without belief. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/skepticism-ancient/
Pyrrhonian skepticism involves having no beliefs about philosophical, scientific, or theoretical matters—and according to some interpreters, no beliefs at all, period. Whereas modern skepticism questions the possibility of knowledge, Pyrrhonian skepticism questions the rationality of belief: the Pyrrhonian skeptic has the skill of finding for every argument an equal and opposing argument, a skill whose employment will bring about suspension of judgment on any issue which is considered by the skeptic, and ultimately, tranquillity.
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/sextus-empiricus/
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Re: The Unknown vs Belief (fhe known)
Labels such as skepticism, Pyrrhonian skepticism, and stoicism define different perspectives and make it easier to communicate. On the other hand, I find them to stagnate and limiting rather than fluid and unlimited. I am thankful for your post.
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Re: The Unknown vs Belief (fhe known)
Wittgenstein said:Labels such as skepticism, Pyrrhonian skepticism, and stoicism define different perspectives and make it easier to communicate. On the other hand, I find them to stagnate and limiting rather than fluid and unlimited. I am thankful for your post.
In just the way that it is difficult to walk if one’s shoes are too tight, it is difficult to think if one is restricted by a language that does not fit. Although Wittgenstein was referring to demands made on language by philosophers, I think the metaphor can be extended. There are terms I hesitate to use because they carry several meanings (see the second sentence of my first post) and can all too easily lead to misunderstanding. Given the theme of your topic, one might say that conflict and misunderstanding can arise because the person reading or listening believes they know what a term means, and they may not be wrong in that the term does mean this, but wrong in so far as that is not what the other person meant.The language used by philosophers is already deformed, as though by shoes that are too tight (CV 47)
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Re: The Unknown vs Belief (fhe known)
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Re: The Unknown vs Belief (fhe known)
Full disclosure: Eaglerising was paid handsomely for saying this. Thanks.Foolosq4, once again I thank you for you enlightening post. You're an exceptionally rare bird, probably one in million. Over the course of my life I have interviewed some of the brightest and sharpest minds in the U.S. in a wide variety of fields and occupations. I have meet and talked to thousands of people in the U.S. and Canada. You're one of the best. I wish I would have had the opportunity of meeting you in person. My Profoundest Peace, David
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Re: The Unknown vs Belief (fhe known)
Because of an emotional realization, I believe in the existence of something beyond my ability to conceive that loves me, but I cannot prove it and therefore I cannot claim it as knowledge. Humans have a lot of knowledge about a myriad of physical things which are proven by scientific testing. A lot of it is true as long as it is contained in the box in which it is true, but if you take it out of it's box, does it remain true? This, of course, is a different subject so I won't belabor it here.
When it comes to unknowns, there are an infinite number of them. Among the more common is what happens when we die? Were we alive in a spiritual existence before joining a fetus or baby on this planet? If so, will we return to that spiritual existence when we die? Physical death may not be necessary because we have Jesus and Buddha who ascended and took their bodies with them or so we are told by people who believe these stories.
Perhaps it would be better to title this thread as The Unknown vs Belief vs Knowledge. As for me the only thing I can say I KNOW is that I AM. I only say this because I am aware of me. The knowledge gained through obtaining two college degrees served me well during my working life and I accept that knowledge as being true as long as I am alive in the physical world. Beyond that, everything I would like to think I know is really just belief.
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Re: The Unknown vs Belief (fhe known)
What does that work out to be in practice? Like at a zoning meeting or a discussion of curriculum content at a parent teacher's meeting or in a political argument about immigration?Eaglerising wrote:Is belief necessary? What are the limitations of belief? Opposing beliefs create conflict. On the other hand, the unknown is free of conflict. Is the absence of belief (not knowing) a viable alternative to believing? In other words, is there an advantage to approaching everything from the "unknown" rather than the "known"?
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Re: The Unknown vs Belief (fhe known)
Almost every hero when asked, why did you do this or that responds, "I didn't think about it, I just did it." Some will acknowledge they don't know how they did it. A few will say, it was a "choice less" action or it was the right thing to do, even though it was very dangerous.
There is a vast difference between functioning with thought or knowledge and functioning with consciousness. Observing the body allows you to see this. Our immune system functions with consciousness and isn't dependent upon thought or knowledge. The same applies to your digestive system. Do you have to think or remember to breath?
What I have said can be comprehended but NOT understood until it has been experienced.
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Re: The Unknown vs Belief (fhe known)
I have had these kinds of experiences though I would not say I had no thoughts. I might say I had no verbal chatter, no word based thoughts.Eaglerising wrote:Moreno, that is a good question for several reasons. When I first heard about freedom form thought and the "quiet" mind, I thought you would be a zombie or very mechanical. Although the idea of it intrigued me for years. One day I admitted "I don't know anything about it or what it would be like." And, I approached it and investigated it from the unknown. About 6 months later, to my amazement, I realized I had gone most of the day without a single thought in my mind. When I someone talked to me, they had my total attention. I didn't even know how I would respond until I responded. I was able to perform my work and various tasks better with any thought. In a way it is like walking with a cup of coffee in you hand. If you think about spilling the coffee you usually do. On the other hand, if you don't think about it, you don't spill it
What they mean is they did not stand there weighing the threats or choosing outcomes, but they had thoughts. They noticed a child in danger and concern arose, very quick planning took place, that man is threat and so on. Unless we restrict 'thought' to a very specific kind of ratiocination, thought is taking place in all these situations.Almost every hero when asked, why did you do this or that responds, "I didn't think about it, I just did it."
You are using 'consciousness' idiosyncratically, which is OK, but it will confuse most people. If I see a child in danger and think - I mean, very specifically have the thought - ****, someone should help that kid, but swimming out there I might go down from hypothermia and then I do it, I was both conscioius and thinking the whole time. In your system it seems like you have consciousness over here and thought over there, but the fact is they can be present at the same time and generally are. Now you are likely using consciousness in a specific way, meaning something like samadhi or in the zone or some other term from eastern religions or new age beliefs etc. But even here we can have both thought and consciousness.Some will acknowledge they don't know how they did it. A few will say, it was a "choice less" action or it was the right thing to do, even though it was very dangerous.
There is a vast difference between functioning with thought or knowledge and functioning with consciousness.
Obviously not. But you can think just like this also. In fact if you meditate you will notice that thoughts are a lot like these other functions in that it simply happens.Observing the body allows you to see this. Our immune system functions with consciousness and isn't dependent upon thought or knowledge. The same applies to your digestive system. Do you have to think or remember to breath?
Well, again, to me comprehending is a synonym for understanding, but I can suss out the way you are adding your own idiosyncratic distinction. I would tend to argue that we move into the unknown using the known but not assuming it will remain unchanged. To simply go forward into the unknown while pretending one knows (and or believes) nothing, is to be a passive, reflex guided organism.What I have said can be comprehended but NOT understood until it has been experienced.
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Re: The Unknown vs Belief (fhe known)
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Re: The Unknown vs Belief (fhe known)
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Re: The Unknown vs Belief (fhe known)
Also, it should be noted that Krishnamurti distinguished between purely technical or scientific knowledge such as, say, fixing a car or solving a math problem, and living knowledge such as the way in which one applies technical knowledge in life and interacts with other living beings. A few of the replies to your questions have confused these two realms of knowledge.
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