Everything is about sex except sex. Sex is about power

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Woodart
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Re: Everything is about sex except sex. Sex is about power

Post by Woodart »

LuckyR wrote: Yes, I think most agree that the public face of leadership in most areas through history has been male. Others would point to the power behind the power, but that is a nuanced issue.

I am happy to discuss how this “circumstance” has unfolded; it is a huge topic – brutal as much as it is complex. Yes, women are a power behind the throne; and a potent power in their own right. However, they are abused and taken advantage of in all of written history up until this day. It has imbalanced and crippled the world to our entire disadvantage. It has begun to change “a little” bit in the last 50 years or so, but not much.
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Re: Everything is about sex except sex. Sex is about power

Post by LuckyR »

A lot of a discussion on relative power depends on how power is defined. For example a farmer growing corn feels he is the master of his farm. He decides what to grow, he decides how to grow it and he profits from that growth. OTOH, the corn considers that instead of randomly dropping his kernels on the ground where crows can eat most of your potential children, the corn has a group of slaves that sow his kernels under the soil, scares away crows, poisons other competitive plants that might steal nutrients or sunlight, genetically improves his progeny so they propagate much more than could ever happen naturally.

So, where does the power lie?
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Woodart
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Re: Everything is about sex except sex. Sex is about power

Post by Woodart »

LuckyR wrote:
So, where does the power lie?

Power is a good starting point for understanding. I would say most times power has to do with numerical quantity. If we look at government over time; most leaders are male. If we look at business over time; most leaders are male. If we look at religion over time; most leaders are male. If we look at philosophy over time; most leaders are male. If we look at art over time; most leaders are male. If we look at the military over time; most leaders are male. If we look at any profession, that is influential, over time; most leaders are male. A glaring exception to this “rule” is Motherhood.
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Felix
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Re: Everything is about sex except sex. Sex is about power

Post by Felix »

I would say most times power has to do with numerical quantity.
How long would this "male power" last if women stopped sanctioning it?
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Woodart
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Re: Everything is about sex except sex. Sex is about power

Post by Woodart »

Felix wrote:
How long would this "male power" last if women stopped sanctioning it?

In true democracies – the power of government – would change overnight – if women voted themselves in office. The fact that they have not in the US in the last one hundred years is a conundrum. If women took equal political power; other areas of power would change – as a matter of course over time. Because they could institute/legislate reforms that would insure equal footing. In business, military, religion, philosophy, art, etc. – it would take more time than politics; but it would change. Politics is the key.

Women, in my view, have serious self-esteem issues – as a result of 5000 years of programing – which holds them back. I see no other plausible explanation. As a result all of humanity is held back. By holding women down/back – we have crippled ourselves as a species. I believe a new renaissance will occur when women step forward. It is starting/beginning – but very slowly - too slowly.

When women emerge politically – creativity in all aspects of human life will explode. Women, in my view, are the key to unlocking the great reservoir of human potential. Women, in my view, are smarter in many ways than men. They are much more psychologically complex. The corpus callosum in women’s brains is larger than men’s. The corpus callosum is a broad band of nerve fibers joining the two hemispheres of the brain. Women have better brain unification. This is not to say that women are better than men or vice versa. We are profoundly different – and it is our differences that make us stronger as a whole species. However, we are not stronger if we hold women down. We are not stronger because we don’t properly value women for who they are – a big mistake.

We don’t want women to dominate – just like we don’t want men to dominate – we need to become true partners. We need to find a balance. The problem is not who wins – it is how we dance/evolve. We have been conducting the male dominated experiment for the last 5000 years – it does not seem to be working very well. It seems to me the time has come for a radical change – that is if we have enough time left before we extinguish ourselves – or put ourselves back to the Stone Age.
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Razblo
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Re: Everything is about sex except sex. Sex is about power

Post by Razblo »

Woodart wrote:"Everything in the world is about sex except sex. Sex is about power." - Oscar Wilde

I am not sure about the truth of this statement, but it is very intriguing. There are all kinds of power – political, social, monetary, spiritual, etc. How about the power of emotion? The power of love is a prime mover in the human equation. We need love, acceptance, affiliation and contact as much as we need air. The desire to belong and be valued by others is pretty high on the list of basic needs. Our motivation needs a spark to ignite our imagination that guides us down the road.

I think it is fair to say that love is a prime mover in the human experience. Without love life is worthless. Sex is powerful from a physical point of view, but the spirit of love is beyond measure. So we must ask ourselves what is this thing we call love?
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ZoneOfNonBeing
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Re: Everything is about sex except sex. Sex is about power

Post by ZoneOfNonBeing »

I agree and disagree with Wilde's statement.

On the one hand, I agree that sex is about power. Radical feminist Andrea Dworkin points out that the word "vagina" is Latin for sheath - which means case for sword. In the collective unconscious, then, there is a connection between violence and sex. She argues that men are impotent in the face of equality: men require the subordination of women to become sexually aroused.

I disagree that everything is about sex. This view is a bit too reductive. There are other motivations in human life - such as the need for air, food, and water. But above all, I would argue that human beings are searching for a sense of meaning/purpose. We are trying to find an answer to the age-old question: why are we here? and what happens after we die? These are existential problems that are not reducible to sex.
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Woodart
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Re: Everything is about sex except sex. Sex is about power

Post by Woodart »

ZoneOfNonBeing wrote:
On the one hand, I agree that sex is about power.
Sex can be about power – but – not good sex. Good sex is about love - when a man and woman make love – both are vulnerable – but who is most vulnerable? The woman – lying down – legs spread – submits to a man. This is a sacred action if done right. The woman submits to the man, trying to communicate the power of softness, the embrace of love, the intelligence of giving, the cradling of hearts desire and the holiness of communion. A woman in all her glory is trying to teach a man that her submission is a path to love – holiness - for them both. Most men don’t get it. For most men it is all about the climax. This is a mistake to miss the love – softness – giving – the holiness of communion. Most women understand love in sex. Most men – not so much.
ZoneOfNonBeing wrote:
Radical feminist Andrea Dworkin points out that the word "vagina" is Latin for sheath - which means case for sword. In the collective unconscious, then, there is a connection between violence and sex. She argues that men are impotent in the face of equality: men require the subordination of women to become sexually aroused.
I agree this typical of many a man’s view of sex. However, a wise man is not “impotent in the face of equality”. A wise man is greatly rewarded by the equality of the sexual union. A wise man learns the true meaning of life - from a woman.

ZoneOfNonBeing wrote:
I disagree that everything is about sex. This view is a bit too reductive. There are other motivations in human life - such as the need for air, food, and water. But above all, I would argue that human beings are searching for a sense of meaning/purpose. We are trying to find an answer to the age-old question: why are we here? and what happens after we die? These are existential problems that are not reducible to sex.
I agree, sex is just part of life. An important part to be sure. The existential questions we all face never leave us. When we address these and other life problems with a cultured consciousness of love – it changes how we see all things.
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ZoneOfNonBeing
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Re: Everything is about sex except sex. Sex is about power

Post by ZoneOfNonBeing »

Woodart wrote: Sex can be about power – but – not good sex. Good sex is about love - when a man and woman make love – both are vulnerable – but who is most vulnerable? The woman – lying down – legs spread – submits to a man. This is a sacred action if done right.
I understand the impulse of this statement. But it is worth mentioning that Oscar Wilde - the author of the quote we are commenting on - was a homosexual. To a certain degree, we could point out that your statement above departs from a perspective that takes heterosexuality as not only normative, but "good", "sacred" and "right". A major task of feminism is to teach and understand that there is nothing inherently natural about heterosexual relationships. What we call 'natural' is a mask for relations of power. As Simone de Beauvoir argued: woman is not born, she is made (through structures of violence, ideology, etc).
Woodart wrote: However, a wise man is not “impotent in the face of equality”. A wise man is greatly rewarded by the equality of the sexual union. A wise man learns the true meaning of life - from a woman.

Interesting! As I was saying above, if a wise man can only learn the true meaning of life from a woman, does that mean men who identify as homosexuals never learn the "true meaning of life"?

I am curious: how can we argue that there is equality in the sexual union if there is no equality in the political, economic, and social spheres of life? Studies show that women still earn less money per hour for the same job, are underrepresented in politics, and are still victims of all forms of violence. This is the ugly consequence of a system of oppression that was set in motion thousands of years ago. Is it disingenuous/naive to claim that a few minutes of carnal pleasure qualifies as "union" between man and woman (as classes) when women, in general, are treated as subordinates?

Can we ever know what "love" is under conditions of oppression?
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Woodart
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Re: Everything is about sex except sex. Sex is about power

Post by Woodart »

ZoneOfNonBeing wrote:
I understand the impulse of this statement. But it is worth mentioning that Oscar Wilde - the author of the quote we are commenting on - was a homosexual. To a certain degree, we could point out that your statement above departs from a perspective that takes heterosexuality as not only normative, but "good", "sacred" and "right". A major task of feminism is to teach and understand that there is nothing inherently natural about heterosexual relationships. What we call 'natural' is a mask for relations of power. As Simone de Beauvoir argued: woman is not born, she is made (through structures of violence, ideology, etc).
I believe good sex, in the way I defined it, can be obtained in homosexual as well as heterosexual relationships.
ZoneOfNonBeing wrote:
Interesting! As I was saying above, if a wise man can only learn the true meaning of life from a woman, does that mean men who identify as homosexuals never learn the "true meaning of life"?
No, see above. However, who do we first learn love from? A mother or mother figure. Love is learned from a mother starting in the womb. We learn love first from a mother – then from a woman lover – when we are ready to appreciate it. Think back – way back – in the cave – or even before the cave – what happened? People banded together and this was the start of civilization. So – what is civilization? Civilization is a social contract. People band together for mutual benefit – right? So, what is the first “banding” together for mutual benefit? It is a mother and a child. A mother and child is the first social contract and the foundation of all civilization. What holds a mother and child together – love. A mother loves her child because she loves herself. A mother and child is first one being. A mother loves herself because she learned love from her mother. A very practical dynamic – that - sets in motion a force - which humans use to propel themselves through life’s journey. What is the basis of civilization – it is the love bond between a mother and child. Love is a kind of contract between two beings. I call mother/child love the first human contract. It is an agreement to protect, nurture, cherish and persist. This contract is what gives civilization its start. More importantly – it is what holds civilization together – today and on into the future.
ZoneOfNonBeing wrote:
I am curious: how can we argue that there is equality in the sexual union if there is no equality in the political, economic, and social spheres of life? Studies show that women still earn less money per hour for the same job, are underrepresented in politics, and are still victims of all forms of violence. This is the ugly consequence of a system of oppression that was set in motion thousands of years ago. Is it disingenuous/naive to claim that a few minutes of carnal pleasure qualifies as "union" between man and woman (as classes) when women, in general, are treated as subordinates?

Can we ever know what "love" is under conditions of oppression?
This is a very difficult question – complex. The best answer I can give is compartmentalization. Men compartmentalize and don’t see the big picture. Ask most people how is civilization formed and what is it – they will give you answers like – laws and government. Not motherhood and love. If we don’t get this right – we may not persist.
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Re: Everything is about sex except sex. Sex is about power

Post by Spectrum »

My hypothesis is as follows;
  • 1. DNA wise, All living species strive to preserve its species at all costs.
    2. To achieve 1, the following sub-programs are embedded in the DNA,
    .....2a. Avoidance of premature death to stay alive so as to;
    .....2b. A very strong SEX drive to produce the next generation.
    3. To support 2, humans are endowed with the module of 'love' and 'power'.
From the above ALL human actions are reducible to the above two main drives [with exceptions].

Exceptions and variations from 2a and 2b arises due to the imperfection of nature and influences by nurture. For example a small percentile of human may have damaged neural sexual circuits during the development state in the womb and they turn out to be asexual.
All humans has the potential for sex but with a added faculty of self-consciousness, some human may choose not to have sex for various reasons.

The 'very strong SEX drive to produce the next generation' [2b] in human is complemented by the emotions [primary and secondary] that enable fine tuning of the approaches to sex. Love is merely one of the emotions to facilitate sexual bonding.
Thus 'love' is merely a facilitator to sex [2b] and also [2a] at the primal level. Love as bonding between mother and child [nurture], and other bonding are to facilitate the person to stay alive so to have sex and produce the next generation.

Power is another secondary element to facilitate and reducible to [2a] - stay alive and [2b] to have sex. Research has show that a high % of the female humans are attracted to men with power and thus to have sex with them. Some men had greed for power and use it to force women to have sex with them. In general, men are not attracted to powerful women.

My point;
There are exceptions where avoiding premature death, sex, love, power are abused aside from the evolved purpose.
BUT, every human acts in general are reducible to point 1, and 2 or 3 above.

Everything in general is about and reducible avoiding premature death and/or SEX.
Sex is not about power, but rather, power is about [subsume under] sex.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
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Re: Everything is about sex except sex. Sex is about power

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Woodart wrote:"Everything in the world is about sex except sex. Sex is about power." - Oscar Wilde

I am not sure about the truth of this statement, but it is very intriguing. There are all kinds of power – political, social, monetary, spiritual, etc. How about the power of emotion? The power of love is a prime mover in the human equation. We need love, acceptance, affiliation and contact as much as we need air. The desire to belong and be valued by others is pretty high on the list of basic needs. Our motivation needs a spark to ignite our imagination that guides us down the road.

I think it is fair to say that love is a prime mover in the human experience. Without love life is worthless. Sex is powerful from a physical point of view, but the spirit of love is beyond measure. So we must ask ourselves what is this thing we call love?
I have heard this quote before. I guess taken out of whatever context it was written in makes it open to numerous interpretations. Was Wilde mocking, or was this quote taken from a play/essay he wrote?

I ask this because there are number of one liners you can take from the Prologue of The Picture of Dorian Grey which can easily be taken in many different ways. It is only by reading the whole prologue that you can come to appreciate what he is asking the reading to look at prior to reading his novel.
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Woodart
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Re: Everything is about sex except sex. Sex is about power

Post by Woodart »

Spectrum wrote:
My point;
There are exceptions where avoiding premature death, sex, love, power are abused aside from the evolved purpose.
BUT, every human acts in general are reducible to point 1, and 2 or 3 above.

Everything in general is about and reducible avoiding premature death and/or SEX.
Sex is not about power, but rather, power is about [subsume under] sex.
I both agree and disagree somewhat in your conclusions. Not all human motivation hinges on staying alive. A mother will give her life in a nanosecond to save her child. A good father will do the same. There are other reasons people will sacrifice their lives for the good of others. This behavior speaks to a higher ethics and morality in the mind of humans.

Sex can be about power, but when it is – it is not good sex. Good sex teaches the principle of love and the higher ethics mentioned above. Good sex can lead to an enlightened being and bring about real purpose and meaning to life – our highest purpose and meaning. We have a desire as beings to be fulfilled with love and meaning. This desire opens the door to spirituality and a purposeful life. Thinking beyond oneself to the “other” is a portal to bond with another – but – most importantly to bond with oneself. We discover who we are through the eyes of another.
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Re: Everything is about sex except sex. Sex is about power

Post by LuckyR »

Woodart wrote:
Spectrum wrote:
My point;
There are exceptions where avoiding premature death, sex, love, power are abused aside from the evolved purpose.
BUT, every human acts in general are reducible to point 1, and 2 or 3 above.

Everything in general is about and reducible avoiding premature death and/or SEX.
Sex is not about power, but rather, power is about [subsume under] sex.
I both agree and disagree somewhat in your conclusions. Not all human motivation hinges on staying alive. A mother will give her life in a nanosecond to save her child. A good father will do the same. There are other reasons people will sacrifice their lives for the good of others. This behavior speaks to a higher ethics and morality in the mind of humans.

Sex can be about power, but when it is – it is not good sex. Good sex teaches the principle of love and the higher ethics mentioned above. Good sex can lead to an enlightened being and bring about real purpose and meaning to life – our highest purpose and meaning. We have a desire as beings to be fulfilled with love and meaning. This desire opens the door to spirituality and a purposeful life. Thinking beyond oneself to the “other” is a portal to bond with another – but – most importantly to bond with oneself. We discover who we are through the eyes of another.
Well, yes and no. Your example proves that preserving one's DNA/genetics is the prime (not the ONLY) motivator for all animals, including humans. Thus why, as you note, mothers give up their lives for their progeny (but less so for octogenarian strangers).
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Re: Everything is about sex except sex. Sex is about power

Post by Spectrum »

Woodart wrote:
Spectrum wrote:
My point;
There are exceptions where avoiding premature death, sex, love, power are abused aside from the evolved purpose.
BUT, every human acts in general are reducible to point 1, and 2 or 3 above.

Everything in general is about and reducible avoiding premature death and/or SEX.
Sex is not about power, but rather, power is about [subsume under] sex.
I both agree and disagree somewhat in your conclusions. Not all human motivation hinges on staying alive. A mother will give her life in a nanosecond to save her child. A good father will do the same. There are other reasons people will sacrifice their lives for the good of others. This behavior speaks to a higher ethics and morality in the mind of humans.
Note I listed the primary reason as;

1. DNA wise, All living species strive to preserve its species at all costs.

The above is the main set. The sub-sets are 2a. avoiding death and 2b. sex to produce the next generations.
A mother who had a child has fulfilled 1 and 2 and produced the next generation.
Once the next generation is produced, the focus is shifted to protect the next generation [the child] to fulfill the main purpose 1, the continuation of the species.
Thus mother and father can afford to sacrifice themselves [last option] with the hope the child will be alive and taken care by others thus meeting the purpose of the main set, preservation of the species.

Avoiding premature death is the default [2a], but as I has stated there will be exceptions like suicides, risk takers, altruistic sacrifices, etc. This are the variations because nature is never perfect, thus the emergence of variations.
The other is when a person has passed active reproductive ability, the strive to avoid premature death will naturally wane for them to prepare them for inevitable mortality.
Sex can be about power, but when it is – it is not good sex. Good sex teaches the principle of love and the higher ethics mentioned above. Good sex can lead to an enlightened being and bring about real purpose and meaning to life – our highest purpose and meaning. We have a desire as beings to be fulfilled with love and meaning. This desire opens the door to spirituality and a purposeful life. Thinking beyond oneself to the “other” is a portal to bond with another – but – most importantly to bond with oneself. We discover who we are through the eyes of another.
The default purpose of sex [neural algorithm] is to produce the next generation and preserve the species. To ensure this the sex neural algorithm is linked to the pleasure and pain neural circuit [and other circuits]. Those who are in alignment with the ultimate purpose and to have sex are rewarded with pleasure [highest degree due to its criticalness].

Those who do not understand the whole scheme and sex in perspective and are addicted to the pleasure of sex, SOME will resort to power to sustain their addiction for that pleasure.
But note pleasure [happiness] can be a liability.
Happiness Can Break Your Heart
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Thus a balance and optimality is required

DNA wise, Sex is a very powerful drive especially during one's active reproductive age and sex is linked to many positive benefits for a person and sex is also a potential liability to the well being of the individual.
Thus what is critical is one must understand sex in its whole perspective to the individual and collective. From this one must modulate and optimize one's sexual drives.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
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