Truly, What Is Consciousness?

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Belindi
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Re: Truly, What Is Consciousness?

Post by Belindi »

Consul wrote "Okay, but what are qualia?"

Consul wrote:
I just noticed that this statement is misleadingly ambiguous. I don't mean to say that an experience of mine and an experience of another subject cannot be different tokens of the same type (kind) of experience, and that two (numerically) different experience-tokens had by two (numerically) different subjects cannot be qualitatively similar or even qualitatively identical. What I mean to say is that I cannot experience, have or undergo another subject's experience-tokens, since in order for me to be able to do so I would have to be that other subject.
That's true. Qualia are attempts by us to quantify quality. There is actually some scientific headway being made in this endeavour. The fact of the matter is that as long as we have different spatiotemporal attributes from each other's bodies nothing, not even the sharing of the same brain-mind, can induce the sharing of the quality of an experience.
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Consul
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Re: Truly, What Is Consciousness?

Post by Consul »

Felix wrote:
Consul: In the fantasy world of psychedelia and spiritualism people are dancing with angels. I'm talking about the real world. Nevertheless, I'm a curious person, so if you can explain how it's possible for me to (directly) experience or perceive your experiences, please do so!
One man's fantasy is anothers reality. Not everything has a rational explanation and even what does can't necessarily be taught. If you do not possess a faculty or have little or no aptitude for it, explanations will not help you acquire it.

In the case of transpersonal awareness, you could think of it as a spectrum of empathy: on one end of the scale are those who have little or no capacity to empathize with others, and on the other end are those who can empathize completely with another individual, to the point where they can totally identify psychologically with them. It could be compared to the difference between possessing an average memory and having a photographic memory.
The Oxford Dictionary of Psychology defines "empathy" as "the capacity to understand and enter into another person's feelings and emotions or to experience something from the other person's point of view." Unfortunately, this formulation is imprecise and not quite accurate, because it is not literally possible "to experience something from the other person's point of view"; for in order for me to be able to do so I would have to be the other person. So all I can do is imagine experiencing something from the other person's point of view. Empathy or sympathy consists in empathetic or sympathetic imagination. To feel compassion for someone in pain is not to feel her/his pain. Whatever I feel while feeling compassion for other persons, it's my feeling in my mind and not their feelings in their minds. To have fellow-feelings for others is not to have the feelings of fellows but to imagine having them.

"Empathetic Imagination

Traditional moral theories have almost entirely ignored one of our most important moral capacities—the capacity for empathy. Hume's treatment of what he called 'sympathy' or 'fellow-feeling' touches on this issue, but it does not go to the heart of imaginative empathetic projection into the experience of other people. ' As a limiting case, it requires the ability to imagine ourselves in different situations and conditions at past and future times. Unless we can put ourselves in the place of another, unless we can enlarge our own perspective through an imaginative encounter with the experience of others, unless we can let our own values and ideals be called into question from various points of view, we cannot be morally sensitive.

This 'taking up the place of another' is an act of imaginative experience and dramatic rehearsal of the sort described by Nussbaum and Eldridge in their accounts of narrative moral explorations. It is perhaps the most important imaginative exploration we can perform. It is not sufficient merely to manipulate a cool, detached 'objective' reason toward the situation of others. We must, instead, go out toward people to inhabit their worlds, not just by rational calculations, but also in imagination, feeling, and expression.

Reflecting in this way involves an imaginative rationality through which we can participate empathetically in another's experience: their suffering, pain, humiliation, and frustrations, as well as their joy, fulfillment, plans, and hopes. Morally sensitive people are capable of living out, in and through such an experiential imagination, the reality of others with whom they are interacting, or whom their actions might affect."


(Johnson, Mark. Moral Imagination: Implications of Cognitive Science for Ethics. Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1993. pp. 199-200)

-- Updated April 18th, 2017, 8:23 am to add the following --
Tamminen wrote:Consciousness is the starting point of philosophy because it is the precondition of all being, and by studying the structure of consciousness we will get closer to the meaning of the world, matter and time, for example.
Of course, if the physical universe reduces to ideas (percepts and concepts) in nonphysical minds/souls/spirits, then you're right.

-- Updated April 18th, 2017, 8:38 am to add the following --
Felix wrote:One man's fantasy is anothers reality.
I know that Grof and his friends from the MOS (mysticism-occultism-spiritualism) community reject (what I think is by far) the scientifically most probable and philosophically most plausible assumption regarding the relationship of consciousness and matter: The brain is the organ of consciousness, and consciousness is a property or state of the brain (or, more broadly, the animal organism); and as such it is generated by, realized in, and confined to the brain (or, more broadly, the animal organism).
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
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Re: Truly, What Is Consciousness?

Post by Tamminen »

Consul wrote:Of course, if the physical universe reduces to ideas (percepts and concepts) in nonphysical minds/souls/spirits, then you're right.
Tamminen wrote:I am not claiming that all being is being perceived, because that would be silly. There is plenty of being that is never perceived, but it is never perceived from a standpoint of a subject, because it is impossible (for me, at least) to imagine a world that no one has ever experienced or will ever experience. So the subject-object relation is in the nucleus of reality.
Immanence points towards transcendence. The material world, or universe, is transcendent, but it is transcedent for immanence, from the standpoint of a subject.
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Atreyu
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Re: Truly, What Is Consciousness?

Post by Atreyu »

Consciousness is hard to define but it definitely entails a certain self-awareness in conjunction with a certain awareness and control of both the self and one's immediate environment. This is in contrast to mere awareness which does not imply any self-awareness or control at all.

Generally speaking, humans and other known living things are merely aware, not conscious, in spite of what we may like to believe...
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Re: Truly, What Is Consciousness?

Post by Woodart »

Atreyu wrote:Consciousness is hard to define but it definitely entails a certain self-awareness in conjunction with a certain awareness and control of both the self and one's immediate environment. This is in contrast to mere awareness which does not imply any self-awareness or control at all.

Generally speaking, humans and other known living things are merely aware, not conscious, in spite of what we may like to believe...

Well, that's a pretty provocative statement or two without explanation. Are you fishing? If so, I'll bite.......what do you mean?

P.S. please don't make us chase you down some esoteric rat hole.
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Re: Truly, What Is Consciousness?

Post by Tamminen »

Consul wrote:The brain is the organ of consciousness, and consciousness is a property or state of the brain
I think the first part of your sentence is true, but the second part is in conflict with that and is therefore false. If consciousness were a property of the brain, or matter in general, as many scientists think, then that property should be found somewhere in the brain. But I cannot find it in my brain or other people's brains.
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Re: Truly, What Is Consciousness?

Post by Consul »

Tamminen wrote:
Consul wrote:The brain is the organ of consciousness, and consciousness is a property or state of the brain
I think the first part of your sentence is true, but the second part is in conflict with that and is therefore false. If consciousness were a property of the brain, or matter in general, as many scientists think, then that property should be found somewhere in the brain. But I cannot find it in my brain or other people's brains.
Why should all properties or states of matter be externally observable? In fact, consciousness as a property or state of the brain is not externally observable due to its ontological subjectivity, its subjective mode of existence. It is only internally observable, i.e. introspectible, from the first-person point of view. But this doesn't mean that it is a non-material/non-physical property or state – unless "mental"/"experiential"/"phenomenal" is defined as "non-material"/"non-physical", which shouldn't be done, since it would make dualism true by definition.
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
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Re: Truly, What Is Consciousness?

Post by Tamminen »

Consul: Suppose you study your brain as you think of something. Your state of consciousness is A, in the sense of an immediate content of experience. The state of your brain is B, physiologically described, and there is a correlation between A and B. In fact A and B are one and the same thing described with two different languages or coordinate systems. A is ontologically closer than B. When we speak of properties or states of the brain, we must, in my opinion, stay within the physiological level. That there could emerge a new property called consciousness, would sound a bit strange to me, whereas the natural view, in my opinion, is that consciousness is there already, and the brain is indeed, as you wrote, the organ (in the sense of an instrument) of consciousness.
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Re: Truly, What Is Consciousness?

Post by Consul »

Tamminen wrote:
Tamminen wrote:I am not claiming that all being is being perceived, because that would be silly. There is plenty of being that is never perceived, but it is never perceived from a standpoint of a subject, because it is impossible (for me, at least) to imagine a world that no one has ever experienced or will ever experience. So the subject-object relation is in the nucleus of reality.
Immanence points towards transcendence. The material world, or universe, is transcendent, but it is transcedent for immanence, from the standpoint of a subject.
I can easily imagine a world devoid of subjects.

-- Updated April 19th, 2017, 3:59 pm to add the following --
Tamminen wrote:Consul: Suppose you study your brain as you think of something. Your state of consciousness is A, in the sense of an immediate content of experience. The state of your brain is B, physiologically described, and there is a correlation between A and B. In fact A and B are one and the same thing described with two different languages or coordinate systems. A is ontologically closer than B. When we speak of properties or states of the brain, we must, in my opinion, stay within the physiological level. That there could emerge a new property called consciousness, would sound a bit strange to me, whereas the natural view, in my opinion, is that consciousness is there already, and the brain is indeed, as you wrote, the organ (in the sense of an instrument) of consciousness.
When I call the brain the organ of consciousness, I mean that it is the generator of consciousness, and not its receiver (like an antenna) or composer in the sense that it constructs a macroconsciousness out of pre-existent, ready-made microconsciousnesses of atoms or particles. Panpsychism or micropsychism is absolutely incredible.

"Panpsychism is surely one of the loveliest and most tempting views of reality ever devised; and it is not without its respectable motivations either. There are good arguments for it, and it would be wonderful if it were true—theoretically, aesthetically, humanly. Any reflective person must feel the pull of panpsychism once in a while. It’s almost as good as pantheism! The trouble is that it’s a complete myth, a comforting piece of utter balderdash. Sorry Galen, I’m just not down with it (and isn’t there something vaguely hippyish, i.e. stoned, about the doctrine?)."

(McGinn, Colin. "Hard Questions: Comments on Galen Strawson." Journal of Consciousness Studies 13, no. 10/11 (2006): 90–99. p. 93)
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
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Re: Truly, What Is Consciousness?

Post by Felix »

Consul: I can easily imagine a world devoid of subjects.
Yes, but only because you are a subject. If there is no subjective experience of a world, can it be said to exist? To exist at all, it must exist in consciousness.
Panpsychism or micropsychism is absolutely incredible.
.
The incredible sometimes turns out to be true....
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin
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Re: Truly, What Is Consciousness?

Post by Sy Borg »

I love the subject matter of consciousness but find it overwhelming. It raises questions regarding:
  • anecdotal claims
  • wakefulness and sleep, activity and dormancy
  • correlation v causation
  • time / 4D Minkowski space
  • possible other dimensions (or not)
  • various dimensional models
  • defining life and death
  • systems and information theories, incl. networking and connectivity
  • degrees of generation v filtering
  • quantum decoherence/ordering in the brain
  • process of evolution
  • process of gestation
  • process of encephalisation
  • no hard barrier between consciousness and unconsciousness
  • etc ...
I do not understand how anyone could logically form a firm opinion on the subject, although it can make for an interesting read.
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Re: Truly, What Is Consciousness?

Post by Tamminen »

Consul wrote:Panpsychism or micropsychism is absolutely incredible.
I agree. My view is closer to Kant's or Hussel's views, and I want to bring their transcendental idealism to the ontological level (if it is not already there in their theories).
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Consul
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Re: Truly, What Is Consciousness?

Post by Consul »

Felix wrote:
Consul: I can easily imagine a world devoid of subjects.
Yes, but only because you are a subject. If there is no subjective experience of a world, can it be said to exist? To exist at all, it must exist in consciousness.
Of course, in a world devoid of subjects there is nobody who can imagine a world devoid of subjects; but our world is not a world devoid of subjects.
Berkeley is wrong: it is not the case that esse est percipi (being is being perceived). Of course, a world cannot be said to exist unless there are subjects who say so; but it doesn't follow that it depends for its existence on subjects saying, thinking, or knowing that it exists.
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
Belindi
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Re: Truly, What Is Consciousness?

Post by Belindi »

Consul wrote:
Felix wrote: (Nested quote removed.)

Yes, but only because you are a subject. If there is no subjective experience of a world, can it be said to exist? To exist at all, it must exist in consciousness.
Of course, in a world devoid of subjects there is nobody who can imagine a world devoid of subjects; but our world is not a world devoid of subjects.
Berkeley is wrong: it is not the case that esse est percipi (being is being perceived). Of course, a world cannot be said to exist unless there are subjects who say so; but it doesn't follow that it depends for its existence on subjects saying, thinking, or knowing that it exists.

-- Updated April 20th, 2017, 10:17 am to add the following --
Belindi wrote:
Consul wrote: (Nested quote removed.)


Of course, in a world devoid of subjects there is nobody who can imagine a world devoid of subjects; but our world is not a world devoid of subjects.
Berkeley is wrong: it is not the case that esse est percipi (being is being perceived). Of course, a world cannot be said to exist unless there are subjects who say so; but it doesn't follow that it depends for its existence on subjects saying, thinking, or knowing that it exists.

In view of the facts of optical illusions, and the variations between how different species perceive, we don't know what in itself it is that is being perceived . It's unlikely that there is nothing out there, but we don't know what it is that is out there. Berkeley was right in that what we normally perceive is predictable, so that "to be is to be perceived " applies to the percept despite that we don't know what the object of the percept is in itself.
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Re: Truly, What Is Consciousness?

Post by Tamminen »

Consul wrote:Berkeley is wrong: it is not the case that esse est percipi (being is being perceived). Of course, a world cannot be said to exist unless there are subjects who say so; but it doesn't follow that it depends for its existence on subjects saying, thinking, or knowing that it exists.
Being is not being perceived. Being is being perceived or not perceived by a subject and the subject's perceiving or not-perceiving that we call consciousness. We cannot get rid of the subject-object relation. If we remove the subject, also the object vanishes. The object may be independent of an individual subject and relatively independent of any subject, but it must be kept in mind that independence is also a relation and requires something of which an object is independent, for example, as Wittgenstein wrote in his Tractatus, a point along which the world is coordinated.
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