Academic Philosophy vs Socratic Philosophy

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Nick_A
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Re: Academic Philosophy vs Socratic Philosophy

Post by Nick_A »

F4
Nick, when you claimed that Tesla’s mechanistic man is a receiver of consciousness from a mechanistic universe, I called you on it. I asked for evidence from what Tesla said and an explanation of how and why what is mechanical should be interpreted as being conscious.
"My brain is only a receiver, in the Universe there is a core from which we obtain knowledge, strength and inspiration. I have not penetrated into the secrets of this core, but I know that it exists." —Nikola Tesla
Tesla through is apparently developed powers of intuition acknowledged the reality of Plato’s world of forms within which conscious ideas remain in potential until expressed within higher life like Man as creatures within our mechanical universe. The universe is a machine governed by mechanical laws. Consciousness can effect these laws
When you said that “heart knowledge” is the center of Socratic philosophy I called you on it. I asked for evidence from the dialogues and an explanation of how and why the prominence he gives to reason should be interpreted as prominence to “feelings”.
As you know, the soul according to Plato had three parts. Where in the complete soul is justice felt?

https://www.bu.edu/wcp/Papers/Anci/AnciBhan.htm
……………………………Plato realises that all theories propounded by Cephalus, Thrasymachus and Glaucon, contained one common element. That one common element was that all the them treated justice as something external "an accomplishment, an importation, or a convention, they have, none of them carried it into the soul or considered it in the place of its habitation." Plato prove that justice does not depend upon a chance, convention or upon external force. It is the right condition of the human soul by the very nature of man when seen in the fullness of his environment. It is in this way that Plato condemned the position taken by Glaucon that justice is something which is external. According to Plato, it is internal as it resides in the human soul. "It is now regarded as an inward grace and its understanding is shown to involve a study of the inner man." It is, therefore, natural and no artificial. It is therefore, not born of fear of the weak but of the longing of the human soul to do a duty according to its nature……………………………
What is the source of internal knowledge? Does it come from academic experts? No, it is an aspect of consciousness which allows for the devolution of values into creation. The literal mind only comprehends values theoretically I believe that Tesla sensed the reality of the world of forms and the source of our qualities. He felt their presence intuitively

When you made claims about academic philosophy based on your own experience I call you on it. And when the only thing you provided in return is something you read in a book blurb I called you on it. You followed up each of these with more unsubstantiated claims. I am not going to continue this perpetual evasive game you mistake for philosophy. If you wish to proclaim your beliefs then you should do so without attempting to legitimize them by misrepresenting philosophers and scientists or by repeating and expanding your uninformed condemnation of academic philosophy.
My personal experience has been with professors of philosophy. Not one ever felt what they were talking about nor understood the purpose of philosophy. They substituted the search for truth with the joy of arguing. I cannot explain this to you. It has to be experienced. Academic philosophy when highlighted by cold parroting is a poison that destroys eros and divine love by cheapening it into social gain. Philosophy becomes the art of twerking and then why bother other than to get a passing grade.
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
Fooloso4
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Re: Academic Philosophy vs Socratic Philosophy

Post by Fooloso4 »

Eaglerising:
Fooloso4, you chose to do everything you did. Your whole life has been a series of choices. You choose what interested you and what didn't. Everything in life has the potential of influencing you. You chose what did and don't. Thus, you are responsible for what you chose and how you responded to it. Is there someone other than you responsible for your life?
What is it that you think I said that runs counter to any of this?
Are you saying Socrates didn't change or learn anything throughout his life?
No, that is not what I am saying. What I am saying it that your image of Socrates is not the image Plato presents. Whatever changes occurred and whatever he learned, he did not turn into turn into a non-threatening person. Even at his trial he was defiant, critical, and deliberately antagonistic.
You see yourself as being right and I am wrong. I see that we disagree.
If we are talking about the Socrates we know through Plato’s dialogues then there is an easy way to settle the disagreement, and that is to look at the dialogues. If you do so you will find that my descriptions are accurate. There really should be no disagreement on this.

It just occurred to me that you might not be talking about the Socrates of Plato’s dialogues but rather some notion of the Socratic method. In that case we have been talking past each other. But if you do mean the Socrates of the dialogue then it is what we find in the dialogues that settles the question. So far you have not referred to the dialogues, which is what made me think that maybe you have something else in mind.


Nick_A:
Tesla through is apparently developed powers of intuition acknowledged the reality of Plato’s world of forms within which conscious ideas remain in potential until expressed within higher life like Man as creatures within our mechanical universe.The universe is a machine governed by mechanical laws. Consciousness can effect these laws
What do you mean “apparently? Does he talk about Plato’s world of forms? Does he talk about conscious ideas? Does he say that consciousness can effect the laws? Does he talk about consciousness at all? If so, please provide examples from his writings. Man, according to Tesla, is not simply a creature within a mechanical universe, man is a machine.
As you know, the soul according to Plato had three parts. Where in the complete soul is justice felt?
You are referring to the description of the soul in the Republic. He describes the soul differently elsewhere. The fact that Plato describes justice as a harmony of the different parts that exist in a well ordered soul does not make it “heart knowledge”.
Dissimulation
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Re: Academic Philosophy vs Socratic Philosophy

Post by Dissimulation »

Fooloso4 - I was referring to Eaglerising first statement. I suppose the time delay for moderator approval created some confusion on my part. I may have used your statement in confusion.
Fooloso4
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Re: Academic Philosophy vs Socratic Philosophy

Post by Fooloso4 »

Dissimulation:
Fooloso4 - I was referring to Eaglerising first statement. I suppose the time delay for moderator approval created some confusion on my part. I may have used your statement in confusion.
I thought it might have been a matter of dissimulation.
Eaglerising
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Re: Academic Philosophy vs Socratic Philosophy

Post by Eaglerising »

Kant said:
A hidden Idea of philosophy has long been present among men. Yet, either they do not understand it, or else they have considered it a contribution to erudition. If we take the ancient Greek philosophers–such as Epicurus, Zeno, Socrates–we discover that the principal object of their science has been the destination of man, and the means to achieve it. They thus remained much more faithful to the true Idea of the philosopher than has been the case in modern times, when we enounter the philosopher only as an artist of reason.
Fooloso4 says his perception of Socrates is accurate, although most who knew him saw Socrates differently. Secondly, Fooloso4, perception of him is based on others rather than himself, because Fooloso4 never met Socrates.

Although i enjoyed Plato's version of Socrates, it is illogical that Plato or anyone else could precisely recall every word Socrates said in his dialogues.

Yet, I am being told I am illogical.
Fooloso4
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Re: Academic Philosophy vs Socratic Philosophy

Post by Fooloso4 »

Eaglerising:
Fooloso4 says his perception of Socrates is accurate …
I am saying it is based on Plato’s Socrates. That is a point of reference not a claim about the accuracy of my perception. Put simply, if we are talking about Plato’s Socrates then we can look at the dialogues and discuss the pictures of Socrates we find there. If it is not Plato’s Socrates you wish to discuss then it would help to have a point of reference.
Secondly, Fooloso4, perception of him is based on others rather than himself, because Fooloso4 never met Socrates.
Right. I know nothing of Socrates, just the pictures others have painted of him. The question then is whether you are interested in discussing these paintings or in creating your own. Neither is right or wrong, just two different things.
Although i enjoyed Plato's version of Socrates, it is illogical that Plato or anyone else could precisely recall every word Socrates said in his dialogues.
Exactly. That is why I made reference to Plato’s letter where he talks about his portrayal of a Socrates “made young and beautiful”. It is not an accurate depiction of Socrates but Plato’s creation.
Eaglerising
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Re: Academic Philosophy vs Socratic Philosophy

Post by Eaglerising »

Fooloso4 – I am glad we finally got this issue cleaned up. It bugged me on and off for some time. This is why I made the previous post. I wanted to have a better understand what you were saying. Now I have it. Like I have pointed out in other posts, relying solely upon the written word isn't like talking to someone face to face where you can observe their body language and hear their voice. Please excuse my misunderstanding of what you were saying.

-- Updated April 14th, 2017, 2:53 am to add the following --

Qualities such as authentic are extremely rare today. All though "authentic" is a word, "authenticness" isn't. Yet, the English suffix “ness” attached to adjectives and participles, forms abstract nouns which denote exemplifying quality such as darkness; goodness; kindness; preparedness. Likewise, it is rare to find someone who is both intelligent and who possess common sense or wisdom. It deeply saddens me to see how important "knowledge" and the accumulation of it has become more important than "understanding."

Society's dependence upon social media relying upon the written word as opposed to face to face interaction and communication is negatively effecting every aspect of humanity. So much so, that they are not consciously aware of it.

I personally feel these factors are undermining and destroying the "authentic" purpose of philosophy understood by the ancient Greeks. This is being demonstrated by gradually deterioration of society, throughout the world. Unfortunately, most who disagree with this post will defend their view or position rather than examine it.

This can be seen by carefully and objectively examining this discourse regarding "Academic Philosophy vs Socratic Philosophy."
Lyonbyte
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Re: Academic Philosophy vs Socratic Philosophy

Post by Lyonbyte »

Socrates asked everyone to heed the injunction, "know thyself" (gnothi seauton) and to "take care of yourself" (epimeleia heautou). These were the spiritual injunctions of the oracle that was said to have declared Socrates the wisest person in the city. It is within the meaning of these statements that you will find the meaning of socratic philosophy. To be clear, it is the way of ancient philosophy to suppose that in order to arrive at the truth one must conjure become something other than what one is, and Socrates explained in a number of places in the Platonic dialogues that one practices philosophy to this end, looking beyond the things of this world towards that which is divine. Wherever Socratic philosophy becomes practical it for the purpose of such spiritual transformation. . .even suggesting in the Republic that the harmony and justice of the state is inextricably connected with harmony and justice in the very soul of man. He is in every way concerned with immortality. It is finally with Descartes that all this changes, where philosophy produces the notion that truth is determined not by transfiguration of self or "turning the eye of the soul upon itself" (for which reason is merely a tool), but rather virtue of self-evidence and the Cogito. This is main distinction, I think, between ancient and modern philosophy.
Eaglerising
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Re: Academic Philosophy vs Socratic Philosophy

Post by Eaglerising »

Lyonbyte points out that "knowing thyself" and "take care of yourself was the essence of Socrates philosophy. And, René Descartes change it to "I think, therefore I am" with the Cogito. If you know yourself, you are going to take care of yourself. And it is impossible to take care of yourself without knowing yourself. Both of which are obtained through "self-evidence". The source of all three are internal as opposed to external.

The key difference between ancient and modern philosophy are "purpose" and "objective" or what you do with it or how it is being used. Purpose determines objective. The purpose of modern philosophy is the accumulation of knowledge, where as ancient philosophy is the negation of knowledge. The accumulation of knowledge prevents you from knowing yourself, taking are of yourself, and obtaining inner wisdom. If you start with knowledge your result will be knowledge (regardless if it is called something different). The negation of knowledge (venturing into and relying upon the unknown) produces a different result because it based upon "understanding" or "inner wisdom" as opposed to knowledge.
Lyonbyte
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Re: Academic Philosophy vs Socratic Philosophy

Post by Lyonbyte »

Eaglerising,

I think it isn't that the ancients were seeking to negate or subvert knowledge, rather the purpose was to arrive at "real knowledge" as opposed to worldly or profane knowledge. It is the distinction between divine knowledge and mundane knowledge that makes the difference between "real knowledge and apparent knowledge." Allow me to offer for you consideration some pertinent passages from the Phaedo which I'm sure you have encountered before:

"Then what about the actual acquiring of knowledge? Is the body an obstacle when one associates with it in the search for knowledge? I mean for example, do men find any truth in sight or hearing, or are not even the poets forever telling us that we do not see hear anything accurately, and surely if those two physical senses are not clear or precise, our other senses can hardly be accurate. . .Is it not in reasoning if anywhere that any reality becomes clear to the soul?"

"Then he will do this most perfectly who approaches the object with thought alone, without associating any sight with his thought, or dragging in any sense perception with his reasoning, but who, using pure thought alone, tries to track down each reality pure and by itself, freeing himself as far as possible from eyes and ears and, in a word, from the whole body, because the body confuses the soul and does not allow it to acquire truth and wisdom whenever it is associated with it."

"It really has been shown to us that if we are ever to have pure knowledge, we must escape from the body. . .While we live, we shall be closest to knowledge if we refrain as much as possible from association with the body and do not join with it more than we must, if we are not infected with its nature but purify ourselves from it until the god himself sets us free. In this way we shall escape the contamination of the body's folly. . ."

And the exhortation that later became the discipline of the quadrivium:

"Every diagram, system of numbers, every scheme of harmony, and every law of the movement of the stars, ought to appear one to him who studies rightly; and what we say will properly appear if one studies all things looking to one principle, for there will be seen to be one bond for all these things, and if anyone attempts philosophy in any other way he must call on Fortune to assist him. For there is never a path without these; this is the way, these the studies, be they hard or easy; by this course must one go, and not neglect it. The one has attained all these things in the way I describe, him I for my part call wisest, and this I maintain through thick and thin." (Laws)

"For the eye of the soul, blinded and buried by other pursuits, is rekindled and aroused again by these and these alone, and it is better that this be saved than thousands of bodily eyes, for by it alone is the truth of the universe beheld." (Republic)

An interesting qualification. As you pointed out, it surely indicates our purpose for practicing philosophy. This brings me back to Nietzsche's critique of the instincts of philosophers, his prefiguration of Freud in positing underlying drives and impulses that determine just how and why some philosophers go about their business.
Eaglerising
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Re: Academic Philosophy vs Socratic Philosophy

Post by Eaglerising »

Your last post and the preceding posts of others point out the difficulty of language. Everyone has a different vocabulary, different definitions of the same words, different emotions attached to the words in their vocabulary, etc. Furthermore, the meaning of some words have changed over time. And there isn't a word for everything we understand. All these make it difficult to convey to another what one knows. And, unlike knowledge, understanding cannot be communicated from one individual to another, because understanding requires experience. All this is another reason why "know thyself" and "self-knowledge" (understanding and wisdom) is so important.
Lyonbyte
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Re: Academic Philosophy vs Socratic Philosophy

Post by Lyonbyte »

Nice observation, Eaglerising. I find that for me philosophy is more of personal matter of discipline and thought, and do not go in so much for the debates. I was once a philosophy major in college, but I was quickly disillusioned by the whole process which seemed to me so frustrating because of its artificiality. This is, of course, contrary to all those good learned scholars who believe that nothing will replace the praxis of engaging at an academy or with peers in a classroom, and publishing and writing much, etc. There is perhaps some benefit for the discipline of thought, but if you happen to already be a careful or enthusiastic inquirer then it seems to be more of an impediment. . .when one can seek and inquire more freely by oneself. And I have the benefit of these forums from time to time. So personally, I'm quite content.

I integrate some of the Eastern methods into my own practice, including practical Vedanta philosophy and Sankhya, also mathematics. I find that Euclidean geometry is more than enough for my purpose.

What are your philosophical tendencies and practices?
Eaglerising
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Re: Academic Philosophy vs Socratic Philosophy

Post by Eaglerising »

I feel no one other than yourself has or knows your path because every is unique (different). Thus, I don't follow anyone or practice a philosophy other that my own. Here again, inner wisdom is gained thorough personal experience. I approach everything from the the "unknown", I treat my findings or discoveries as a "possibility." Thus, I constantly challenge every newly founded insight rather than draw a conclusion. Thus, my understanding is constantly evolving. I find the universal and immutable laws that govern the physical world very helpful. Unlike most people, I have the ability to read the Akashic Records or Book of Life, which is extremely beneficial. In other words, there isn't any word for the philosophy I practice.
Lyonbyte
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Re: Academic Philosophy vs Socratic Philosophy

Post by Lyonbyte »

I see Krishnamurti is your favorite philosopher. He once said "truth is a pathless land." Indeed there is nothing new under the sun, as everything we can possibly do in philosophical inquiry has been done before, and one simply goes according to one's own inclination. From the unknown seems right, as once we know a thing there is no longer any reason to make it a subject of inquiry. I encounter a lot of people these days who are destroyers. Destroyers are good, and they have good things to say. In so far as you challenge newly founded insights, you seem to me to be a destroyer. . .like a child building, creating, discovering, then demolishing. I once heard a man say that knowledge is bondage. . .crystalline bondage. Your notion of undermining knowledge is wise, also. Of course, Nietzsche returns to mind with his outrageous suggestion "why not untruth?" "We must speak only of perspective. . ." "Life is only redeemable as an aesthetic phenomenon." In other words, to hell with knowledge, and no authorities shall colonize my neuro-pathways. But then I think, as you probably do, there are things in the edifice of knowledge that are so very nice to contemplate. I recall a proposition made by Plotinus: "All things are in contemplation, and have contemplation as their purpose." His explanation of this is quite interesting.
Eaglerising
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Re: Academic Philosophy vs Socratic Philosophy

Post by Eaglerising »

Lyonbyte –
From the unknown seems right, as once we know a thing there is no longer any reason to make it a subject of inquiry. I encounter a lot of people these days who are destroyers. Destroyers are good, and they have good things to say. In so far as you challenge newly founded insights, you seem to me to be a destroyer. . .like a child building, creating, discovering, then demolishing. I once heard a man say that knowledge is bondage. . .crystalline bondage. Your notion of undermining knowledge is wise, also.
I like to destroy illusions. What you and most who have commented on this string are unable to see is that your responses confirm everything I said about academic philosophy. It causes me to wonder if you read or examine what you say. Especially when I point out how you will comment on it before you actually do.

How do you know for sure what you know is accurate if you don’t question and examine it. “What is” can withstand any challenge, “what is not” cannot.

-- Updated June 13th, 2017, 7:01 pm to add the following --

Upon reflecting upon my response, I could see that I had an agenda. I simply wasn't judging rather than observing. At present, I am unable to see where I can just observe as opposed to having an agenda because of how I view academic philosophy. Thus, I see I shouldn't be here. Me being here is just going to create conflict and upset those who support academic philosophy. Therefore. I will cease to participate until I can approach it without having an agenda or judging it Thank you for helping me see this.
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