Academic Philosophy vs Socratic Philosophy

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Eaglerising
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Academic Philosophy vs Socratic Philosophy

Post by Eaglerising »

Unlike in the past, today's focus is on academic philosophy rather than what I call Socratic philosophy or an authentic quest for truth. This causes me to wonder about the future of meaningful philosophy, a philosophy that changes the life of the inquirer as opposed to playing intellectual gymnastics. Thanks to academic philosophy, most see philosophy as a belief, theory or opinion rather than as a tool. Thus, there is Descartes' philosophy, Huxley's philosophy, Rand's philosophy, and Russell's philosophy as opposed to a generic tool for understanding the nature of life and man's relationship to life, so he can improve the quality of his life. A tool that isn't founded upon or anchored to any authority as academic philosophy is. Today's focus is on knowing "what to think" as opposed to "how to think." It saddens me to see how dependent man is upon authority and security, which are illusions. In turn, he has become more confused and fearful.
Dissimulation
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Re: Academic Philosophy vs Socratic Philosophy

Post by Dissimulation »

Can you further define what Academic philosophy is ? Can you define Socratic philosophy? examples of each would be helpful. What 'most' believe philosophy is or isn't is irrelevant to an individual with an interest in the study of philosophy. In the same way that I may have a conception of what an engineer does but lack any valid knowledge regarding its practice/ expression. Philosophy may have profound significance to you but its both decadent and a contradiction to argue that philosophy ought to be limited and practiced uniformly. Ironically it appears your assertion itself is a belief, a belief that perhaps has restricted your very pursuit. Your assertion lacks any argument and presupposes your statements are true without reason or argument. Why ought philosophy be understood (only) as a tool ? can you elaborate or define What philosophy is as a tool. The thinkers you mentioned , at least Descartes, Russell and Rand have contributed to 'understanding the nature of life and man's relationship to life' (if necessary I can present arguments)but even so again philosophy is restricted to the parameters you set.

Today's focus is on knowing "what to think" as opposed to "how to think' - What does this mean ? Descartes dedicated much of his work to establishing a methodology for valid thought. Russell was a logician and influential in the development analytic philosophy which is itself a methodology for 'thinking', more so was actively involved in social-political issues.

'It saddens me to see how dependent man is upon authority and security, which are illusions. In turn, he has become more confused and fearful.' - I don't understand the relevance of this assertion or how you came to that conclusion. Without an argument your assertion is the very dogma or illusion which you are attempting to reject.

'
Fooloso4
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Re: Academic Philosophy vs Socratic Philosophy

Post by Fooloso4 »

As I see it, Socratic philosophy is oriented by the practice of the examined life. As a practice there are two aspects - one centered on thinking and the other on living. While it is certainly true that such considerations are no longer dominant in mainstream philosophy they have not been lost. This was a major concern of Pierre Hadot - “Philosophy as a Way of Life” and more recently Alexander Nehamas - “The Art of Living”.

From the publisher’s description of Hadot’s book:
This book presents a history of spiritual exercises from Socrates to early Christianity, an account of their decline in modern philosophy, and a discussion of the different conceptions of philosophy that have accompanied the trajectory and fate of the theory and practice of spiritual exercises. Hadot's book demonstrates the extent to which philosophy has been, and still is, above all else a way of seeing and of being in the world.
wiley.com/WileyCDA/WileyTitle/productCd ... 80338.html
From the publisher’s description of Nehamas’ book:
For much of its history, philosophy was not merely a theoretical discipline but a way of life, an "art of living." This practical aspect of philosophy has been much less dominant in modernity than it was in ancient Greece and Rome, when philosophers of all stripes kept returning to Socrates as a model for living. The idea of philosophy as an art of living has survived in the works of such major modern authors as Montaigne, Nietzsche, and Foucault. Each of these writers has used philosophical discussion as a means of establishing what a person is and how a worthwhile life is to be lived. In this wide-ranging, brilliantly written account, Alexander Nehamas provides an incisive reevaluation of Socrates' place in the Western philosophical tradition and shows the importance of Socrates for Montaigne, Nietzsche, and Foucault.
http://www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520224902
Eaglerising
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Re: Academic Philosophy vs Socratic Philosophy

Post by Eaglerising »

Thank you Fooloso4 for the information. I find it interesting how people view someone's work differently. I see Socrates as being more practical than spiritual. Likewise I see Jiddu Krishnamurti as being more spiritual than philosophical.

I see philosophy as tool for living a better life as opposed to theorizing different topics, concepts, or ideas which have little or no tangible practicality. Motive, approach and objective are the three major differences between ancient and modern philosophy.

-- Updated March 24th, 2017, 1:25 pm to add the following --

Consequently, the end result is different, especially in respect to effectiveness and practicality.
Fooloso4
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Re: Academic Philosophy vs Socratic Philosophy

Post by Fooloso4 »

Eaglerising:
I see Socrates as being more practical than spiritual.
This may be to a greater or lesser extent a problem of translation and linguistic sedimentation. The term ‘spiritual’ has accrued religious connotations that were always part of the meaning of the term. It is a matter of transformative practice, self transformation. What one does is a consequence of what one is.
Eaglerising
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Re: Academic Philosophy vs Socratic Philosophy

Post by Eaglerising »

I was merely expressing how I saw Socrates. Once again we are back to the limitations of words and their ineffectiveness. The same applies to the limitations of knowledge compared to understanding.

The statement "What one does is a consequence of what one is" is another way of expressing what you start with is what you end with or the end result is the same as what you started with, regardless of what either are called.

My approach to truth is different because I challenge and test my understanding using three different ways. If the understanding is scientific, I challenge and test it by examining it philosophically and spirituality If it is spiritual, I challenge it and test it through the use of philosophy and science. And if is philosophical, I use science and spirituality. The findings of all need to be in agreement. As far as I know, there is no name or label for what I do.
Fooloso4
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Re: Academic Philosophy vs Socratic Philosophy

Post by Fooloso4 »

Eaglerising:
The statement "What one does is a consequence of what one is" is another way of expressing what you start with is what you end with or the end result is the same as what you started with, regardless of what either are called.
The practice of self transformation means that to the extent you are successful transforming yourself you are no longer what you were. It is a matter of becoming the best you are capable of being.
Dissimulation
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Re: Academic Philosophy vs Socratic Philosophy

Post by Dissimulation »

The statement "What one does is a consequence of what one is" is another way of expressing what you start with is what you end with or the end result is the same as what you started with, regardless of what either are called.

My approach to truth is different because I challenge and test my understanding using three different ways. If the understanding is scientific, I challenge and test it by examining it philosophically and spirituality If it is spiritual, I challenge it and test it through the use of philosophy and science. And if is philosophical, I use science and spirituality. The findings of all need to be in agreement. As far as I know, there is no name or label for what I do.


The limitations of language is not a valid statement in defense of an assertion. The inability to develop an argument renders the 'argument' invalid. Your stating that it cant be communicated or understood by anyone but you as the individual- if that is true (no way to verify) then the assertion itself is meaningless in discussion and has no relevance in philosophical discussion. I do not understand your "approach' (Define) to truth, understanding implies the truth of a thing, given your argument I fail to understand how you can determine a category of methodology to 'approach' truth - it presupposes that you have an understanding of a thing before the application of your methodology, therefore you assert a particular attribute of a thing as truth before you employ the method you use to determine it. Its a contradiction. Its concerning that your entire statement lacks an argument, lacks an understanding of the work you referenced, lacks a definition of the very questions you posed and your response is both invalid, tautological and by your own emission can not be expressed.

The statement "What one does is a consequence of what one is" is another way of expressing what you start with is what you end with or the end result is the same as what you started with, regardless of what either are called.

This statement has no relevance to your previous statement. The analogy is invalid as well as the conclusion you draw from it. Essentially your stating philosophy and truth/validity has no relevance in the external world, perhaps an argument could be made if thats what you intended but by stating this in the external world (the forum) you are contradicting yourself. If you disagree using the same methodology you again contradict yourself, you contradict yourself because what you call truth/philosophy, as you stated, cannot be communicated, a statement about nothing based on a dogma in a forum and in a field that denounces such untruths. How you perceive a thing is not an argument for its validity and many of the statements made particularly regarding Socrates and at least 3 of the other thinkers you refer to appear as misinformation to the extent that It seems you picked 4 thinkers out of a hat without reading any of there work. Its entirely possible that you have an argument (not stated) but given your methodology it appears as untruth and unsubstantiated claims.

I think Nietzsche says it best - ' a casual stroll through a lunatic asylum shows us that faith proves nothing'
Nick_A
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Re: Academic Philosophy vs Socratic Philosophy

Post by Nick_A »

Eaglerising wrote:Unlike in the past, today's focus is on academic philosophy rather than what I call Socratic philosophy or an authentic quest for truth. This causes me to wonder about the future of meaningful philosophy, a philosophy that changes the life of the inquirer as opposed to playing intellectual gymnastics. Thanks to academic philosophy, most see philosophy as a belief, theory or opinion rather than as a tool. Thus, there is Descartes' philosophy, Huxley's philosophy, Rand's philosophy, and Russell's philosophy as opposed to a generic tool for understanding the nature of life and man's relationship to life, so he can improve the quality of his life. A tool that isn't founded upon or anchored to any authority as academic philosophy is. Today's focus is on knowing "what to think" as opposed to "how to think." It saddens me to see how dependent man is upon authority and security, which are illusions. In turn, he has become more confused and fearful.
I agree. At one time philosophy served to open the mind. It was considered the love of wisdom. Academic philosophy has turned it into the love of argument - of being right even in ones own imagination. Academic philosophy closes the mind. Philosophy as a tool to nourish our higher parts is now considered an antiquated idea getting in the way of "education."

How would you suggest keeping philosophy available to the young who need its nourishment but are being spiritually killed in society and in schools by the effects of academic philosophy?
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
Eaglerising
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Re: Academic Philosophy vs Socratic Philosophy

Post by Eaglerising »

Dissimulation – you answered some of your own questions in your response to my post about Socratic (ancient) philosophy and academic (modern) philosophy taught in colleges. You did it when you pointed out some of the differences between your perception and mine.

I am not saying philosophy ought to be limited and practiced uniformly. That would be impractical and illogical because everyone is different. I was merely pointing out the difference between the two philosophies. The limitations of language frequently cause misunderstandings because everyone is unique. No two people have the same vocabulary, have the same definition for the words in their vocabulary, express themselves the same way, have the same emotional attachment to various words, and have had the same experiences.

Knowledge can be transferred from one individual to another. Understanding isn’t transferable because it is gained through experience and people don’t experience everything the same. Having knowledge about the Teton Mountains isn’t the same as personally experiencing them. Those who have had more experience at something generally have a better understanding than those that don’t.

I don’t view your or my way of doing something is being superior or inferior, but as being different. I have no interest or desire in believing anything. I either “don’t know” something or I understand it. I view things as a “possibility” rather than as a conclusion until I understand them. And, I understand very little. I approach my investigations from the “unknown” as opposed to the known. I have no interest or desire in proving anything. You can reject my posts, criticize them, or view them as a possibility and investigate them.

The ability to see “authority” and “security” as illusions has to come from within you, as opposed from someone or something externally from you. That’s because thought will reject anything that conflicts with what you believe. Your previous post clearly illustrated that.

-- Updated March 24th, 2017, 9:49 pm to add the following --

Nick_A, you asked a very good question: "How would you suggest keeping philosophy available to the young who need its nourishment but are being spiritually killed in society and in schools by the effects of academic philosophy?"

By having school districts, schools, and teacher who are wise enough to expose it to their students. There is a strong possibility that the major problem in education is educators believing they know and understand education.
Nick_A
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Re: Academic Philosophy vs Socratic Philosophy

Post by Nick_A »

Eaglerising wrote:Dissimulation – you answered some of your own questions in your response to my post about Socratic (ancient) philosophy and academic (modern) philosophy taught in colleges. You did it when you pointed out some of the differences between your perception and mine.

I am not saying philosophy ought to be limited and practiced uniformly. That would be impractical and illogical because everyone is different. I was merely pointing out the difference between the two philosophies. The limitations of language frequently cause misunderstandings because everyone is unique. No two people have the same vocabulary, have the same definition for the words in their vocabulary, express themselves the same way, have the same emotional attachment to various words, and have had the same experiences.

Knowledge can be transferred from one individual to another. Understanding isn’t transferable because it is gained through experience and people don’t experience everything the same. Having knowledge about the Teton Mountains isn’t the same as personally experiencing them. Those who have had more experience at something generally have a better understanding than those that don’t.

I don’t view your or my way of doing something is being superior or inferior, but as being different. I have no interest or desire in believing anything. I either “don’t know” something or I understand it. I view things as a “possibility” rather than as a conclusion until I understand them. And, I understand very little. I approach my investigations from the “unknown” as opposed to the known. I have no interest or desire in proving anything. You can reject my posts, criticize them, or view them as a possibility and investigate them.

The ability to see “authority” and “security” as illusions has to come from within you, as opposed from someone or something externally from you. That’s because thought will reject anything that conflicts with what you believe. Your previous post clearly illustrated that.

-- Updated March 24th, 2017, 9:49 pm to add the following --

Nick_A, you asked a very good question: "How would you suggest keeping philosophy available to the young who need its nourishment but are being spiritually killed in society and in schools by the effects of academic philosophy?"

By having school districts, schools, and teacher who are wise enough to expose it to their students. There is a strong possibility that the major problem in education is educators believing they know and understand education.
I think you would agree tht true philosophy has to begin with a recognition of the human condition as it exists within us. Plato described the human condition in his famous cave allegory. But as you suggested, knowledge is one thing and understanding is another. Teachers taking pride in academic philosophy often do not know that philosophy reveals the human condition and what is meant by leaving the cave.
Simone Weil lamented that education had become no more than "an instrument manipulated by teachers for manufacturing more teachers, who in their turn will manufacture more teachers." rather than a guide to getting out of the cave.
Simone is right. Academic philosophy has become parroting and I agree with you that something important has been lost. Keeping the good of philosophy alive isn't so easy.

-- Updated Fri Mar 24, 2017 10:20 pm to add the following --

Eaglerising, For some reason I cannot reply by a PM. You may have deactivated something.
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
Dissimulation
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Re: Academic Philosophy vs Socratic Philosophy

Post by Dissimulation »

My intention in any discussion is to develop a better understanding, the criticism was stated with the intention to better understand your assertion and I welcome any criticism of my own statements for the same purpose. The act of my response was complimentary as I found it interesting and responded with the intention to clarify some statements. We are in agreement that the education system is lacking. Given that we are now living in an age of decadence and cultural priorities/values have changed the conditions that once allowed for meaningful thought appear rare. Personal growth has become a novelty and its prominence replaced with external values ( Wealth, Title, prestige etc). My interest in philosophy is individualistic. I imagine most educators are faced with the difficulty of expressing the value of philosophy in a culture that dismisses it and being obligated to offer a program that a general audience can understand or at least pass in order for the institution to profit. My posts require an administrator to view before being posted, initially I thought it was deleted.
Dissimulation
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Re: Academic Philosophy vs Socratic Philosophy

Post by Dissimulation »

I cant edit or view a post I submitted last night. Interesting discussion Eaglerising . I am interested in continuing this discussion as its invoked some thoughts of my own. For my own clarification- What is the divisive difference between Socratic dialogue and argumentative philosophy ? why is Socrates insight into the human condition more Authentic then Descartes? I recognize that the complexity of the arguments have generally increased over time, however I contend that this due to the development of ideas in philosophical thought and is equally authentic. Philosophy like any inquiry, as ideas are developed and expanded upon and require language that may be more 'academic' in order to both validate, understand and grow. In grade one we learn to add, high school calculus , university theoretical physics - The complexity increases out of necessity and through philosophical argument (valid) we are better able to recognize those things that are true or at the very least recognize and dismiss untruths. I don't perceive the difference in the two states of philosophy, it appears to me your comparing Philosophy with present education, education of philosophy and philosophy are very different things. More so, Your comparing a single philosopher to the whole of modern philosophy. Philosophy as its exists (Socrates himself) saw the need to uncover
truth and philosophical argumentation is verified by critical reasoning and logic in the argument. without such practice philosophy is reduced to theology or belief.
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Re: Academic Philosophy vs Socratic Philosophy

Post by -1- »

Simone Weil wrote: Simone Weil lamented that education had become no more than "an instrument manipulated by teachers for manufacturing more teachers, who in their turn will manufacture more teachers." rather than a guide to getting out of the cave.
If this were actually true, then all education would be wasted on all the kids who do not become teachers.

Is that an actual fact?

Or should we take SW's statement with a grain of salt?

And if we take the statement with a grain of salt... does that mean we automatically allow all statements to be called "true" even if there is only a statistical correspondence to some arbitrary compliance (ie. true 50% of the time, or 23% of the time, etc.)?

If all statements that we call "true" are only actually true a certain percentage of time, then their opposite may also be "true".

Which means that a statement and its exact opposite could both be true at the same time and in the same respect.

Which is absurd.

Therefore Simone Weil proposes that a statement be accepted as true, when it is not true.

Therefore I suggest that Simone Weil is a ninni when you think of him (or of her?) as a philosopher.

(Boy, I have been wanting to say that for a long time... finally a proof came along to help me formulate my opinion into a formal argument.)

-- Updated 2017 March 26th, 2:35 am to add the following --
There is a strong possibility that the major problem in education is educators believing they know and understand education.
The same fear exists inasmuch as engineers may think they understand engineering, and doctors may think they understand medicine, and street sweepers may think they understand street sweeping.
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Eaglerising
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Re: Academic Philosophy vs Socratic Philosophy

Post by Eaglerising »

You called the following statement a FEAR.

"There is a strong possibility that the major problem in education is educators believing they know and understand education."

You also applied the statement to engineers, doctors, and street sweepers.

It it a fear or something different?

-- Updated March 26th, 2017, 2:44 am to add the following --

Please explain, is it a fear or something else?
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