Reality is a distraction

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Spectrum
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Re: Reality is a distraction

Post by Spectrum »

Jan Sand wrote:For any individual to make claims to speak for other than him or herself becomes an intolerable impertinence.
Oops, looks like you are referring to my post.
Btw, I am just expressing an opinion and preference.
In here, it is one's discretion to do what one wants. To each his/her own.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
Jan Sand
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Re: Reality is a distraction

Post by Jan Sand »

Thanks for the reply, but it is deeper than discretion, it is the nature of interaction.
Georgeanna
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Re: Reality is a distraction

Post by Georgeanna »

Burning ghost wrote:Don't storm clouds look beautiful in the distance though?
Yes they do :)
That reminds me of a special day on the coast; sunny and warm. Looking out across the sea towards the horizon - there was a distinct line between the near blue sky and the low grey clouds gathering in a roll. The precursor to a heavy thunder and lightning storm which hit us in the car on the way home.

If we had stayed longer to appreciate the beautiful formation - we could call this a distant, detached 'aesthetic reality' - our bodies would have been hit by fearsome reality. At best we would have got soaked to the skin. But imagine being out on a boat. Think of the rush to find safe harbour. That's reality with no time for distraction. Up close and actual reality.

So, at least two types of reality: the aesthetic and the actual ?
Consciousness, or awareness, necessary for both.
Perhaps degree of distraction relates to different levels of reality. The closer any dangers of reality, the less room for distraction.

I conclude that reality in itself is not a distraction.
It seems I agree with Spectrum, again :) and take on board his thoughts:

'To live optimally one has to understand the various perspectives of reality.
Perhaps the distraction from one perspective of reality is an attraction to another perspective of reality'
Jan Sand
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Re: Reality is a distraction

Post by Jan Sand »

The nature of reality and how it is discerned is a fundamental area to all thoughtful people and the patterns out of our sensory system which are constructed in our brains to make sense of whatever reality might be useful to us can be formulated in multitudes of ways. As an artist and a graphic designer I have come to the general viewpoint that the function of the brain is to create patterns of stimulations of reality from sight and sound and other sensations plus other influences such as emotions, and experience and data from informational sources such as reading and social and cultural sources. The integrations we make of these influences is used to fabricate individual artificial realities which obviously differ a good deal between individuals. The brain function we label as consciousness thereby exists in this individual reality creation and reacts to it to keep us in function.


What is interesting about this is that aside from differences out of culture and experience, these individual reality constructions are quite much alike in fundamentals and considering how radically different they could be, considering the random possibilities available, it is remarkable how alike they are.


Today I read an article on the study of zebra finches at McGill university and how much alike the different songs they sing throughout the whole world in spite of their wide distribution. This can be researched through Google if you are interested. The reason behind the research is that bird song in its many complexities and uses has fascinated scientists because its structures so much resembles human speech. Noam Chomsky has based much of his theoretical work on the concept that all human languages contain similarities of structure and concept and he claims that this must derive out of common human genetics as is similar to the complexities of Zebra Finch song.


Bird songs and human languages are, after all, hugely complex dynamic patterns and yet, amongst humans and birds, these inherently common patterns of all the different accepted understandings of reality are also common between individuals. So, it occurred to me, that our individual perceptions of reality, like our languages, also are basically structured out of our genetics.
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Burning ghost
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Re: Reality is a distraction

Post by Burning ghost »

Georgeanna -

I was referring to something Jung commented on. He used the analogy of the storm cloud on our psychological perspective. To rise above a certain problem allows us to understand how significant it is and that we need not be in the middle of it to appreciate its danger. He would say we do not overcome and destroy our problems, but merely outgrow them and come to appreciate them from a distance. We know they are dangerous yet being able to wrestle ourselves away from their direct control allows us to adapt.

It was a fleeting attempt to get something across to Jan :
The growth of human power over natural forces does not appear to me to be accompanied by human growth in wisdom and fundamental consideration for each other so this unfortunate combination does not contain the elements required for much hope. I am very sorry.
It is not really "power over natural forces" at all. It is the ability to appreciate with awe the lack of control over nature and to gain perspective. There is no "power over nature" only alteration in perspective and location appropriate to the danger. I do not live in fear of meteor strikes every waking moment, but I fully understand I could be snuffed out tomorrow by something less massive and likely seemingly innocent and beautiful.

If life has hit you hard repeatedly you're likely running in circles within the storm. It is possible to get to the eye or to climb the mountains, and there you can appreciate a moment of beauty that surpasses the hardship and suffering.

Human wisdom is often subdued by pessimism and fear. Given that we're literally "hard-wired" for optimism I think its a happy balance. Maybe the mass population on Earth now is pushing humanity toward less of the individual optimism and more toward the group dynamic of pessimism. I gues this would mean that "wisdom" as a useful operator works best within smaller human groups than on a global scale? I guess we'll find out one way or the other.

In the meantime I plan to keep on trying to "do my best".
AKA badgerjelly
Jan Sand
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Re: Reality is a distraction

Post by Jan Sand »

That comment only brought to mind a picture of a victim subdued by a hungry crocodile and while helpless watching his foot chewed off consoling himself that he still had another foot and hoping the beast would be satisfied by a light snack. Optimism is crossed fingers and grim smile while lying helpless on the tracks watching the high speed express train approach. The latest reports from Antarctica is that the collapse of the ice field into the ocean is accelerating and it is a matter of a few decades before all the major coastal cities become submerged. If you think these many millions of people will sit peacefully and permit themselves to drown without fighting desperately to stay alive you possess a sturdier optimism than I can imagine. And the ocean rise is only one factor of the mass extinctions now closing on all forms of life on the planet. Thirty percent of wild birds are gone. Vital insect life has largely disappeared. Corals are dying all over the world and the acidification of the oceans is finishing off everything else. The extent of foolishness of leaders with nuclear weapons is enough alone to eliminate everybody. It's like the traditional end to a standard 007 film with total explosive finality. The inclination for optimism escapes me entirely.
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Burning ghost
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Re: Reality is a distraction

Post by Burning ghost »

Jan -

Many bright people made similar predictions for a future dystopia due to the onset of the industrial revolution. They were partly right, but sadly never lived to see the unforeseen benefits bestowed upon humanity by the industrial age.

There is certainly cause for concern, but if you speak to the next generation (and I would ad my generation too, I am 40 soon), we were pretty heavily exposed to environmental problems, and teenagers now are even more aware of these things, as well as many CEO's.

Of course we could just roll over and die bemoaning the horrible state of the world almost willfully ignoring the massive strides humanity has made.

Foolishness with nuclear weapons? Have they been dropped in any war since WWII? Nope. The biggest danger is someone with your kind of fatalistic mentality being in a position of dropping one, because no one who values the future and sees a possible better future is going to drop a nuclear weapon any time soon. Surrendering to the presumed inevitability of some future you presume to be 100% true is utterly ridiculous. I openly and strongly abhor your attitude and insistence on jumping into the crocs mouth rather than fighting back ... which is kind of insane given that you insist that people will not willing drown yet you're somehow happy to preach that we actually should sit back and hold our heads willfully under the water because things look glum.

Nothing in life of any value is gained without exposure to difficulties and suffering. To suffer for the sake of suffering is the most utterly perverse ideology there can be, but like I said previously it is most likely a necessary step we have to take in order to move beyond it. By all means run around in the storm screaming and follow the rain. If despair is the only way you can live your life I can only hope you'll get a glimpse of those standing outside of the storm no less fearful of it, but having the tendency to deal with the repercussions.

If your beyond even stand up for what you believe in, which it appears you are not, I can only ask what it is you wish to achieve hear other than slapping people into wakefulness about the true extent of the danger you see (hoping they will at least be able to offer something in the way of consolation or direct you toward a means of actively doing something more than obstinately declaring the destruction of human civilization and the human species (along with many others.)

Optimism is in fact a biological trait that allows us to believe there is a "better future" and believing this increases the likelihood that we'll find a better future is there is one out there. If not, so be it. To simply give up is not a human possibility, but an individual full of pessimism can push against such ideas and I'll happily push back, over and over, harder and harder, because I have more to gain by doing so for me and for others.

Of course the problem is then being OVERLY optimistic and walking blindly into a fire. Here you may very well be doing myself and other a good favour by pressing home the dangers of living and the precarious nature of our day-to-day existence.

Basically I am worried about the future, but I don't wish to face it and try to overcome it. I wish to LIVE my life, not skulk along through it head down, shoulders hunched, merely awaiting distaster.
AKA badgerjelly
Steve3007
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Re: Reality is a distraction

Post by Steve3007 »

Greta:
...Did anyone read Ben Elton's Stark? :)
Yes a long time ago. It was set mostly in Australia with a Murdoch-esque character wasn't it? If I remember rightly, after the rich elite had left the Earth on arks didn't they all kill each other because they were such d**kheads?
Jan Sand
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Re: Reality is a distraction

Post by Jan Sand »

I will be 92 years old next February. I have known and loved this world all my life. I am astounded that you presume I am accepting that people do nothing. I scream my head off at every opportunity that the world awaken to the coming multiple catastrophes. WWIII damn near started under Kennedy and his advisors during the US attempted invasion of Cuba and only a Soviet submarine captain refused the demand for a nuclear response to an attack on his submarine by the US and by his personal choice did not respond with a nuclear weapon. There have been many, many accidents with nuclear weapons and only luck saved the world from nuclear destruction many times. I have researched this and am well aware of this idiocy. You mistake my attitude entirely. If the entire world does not awaken to these dangers and organize vigorously to stop it we shall not survive. I see no signs of that vital anti-war dynamics. Relaxing will kill us all.
Steve3007
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Re: Reality is a distraction

Post by Steve3007 »

(P.S. I wasn't trying to make a derogatory comment about Australians there. Just trying to recall the context of the book.)

Jan-

I think your points about sea level rise and mass extinctions are more right than wrong. We absolutely are well on the way to driving vast quantities of the living world out of existence by our sheer weight of numbers. I've read somewhere that, measured by actual biomass, in the last 40 years over half of all the non-human living things on Earth have gone.

theguardian.com/environment/2014/sep/29 ... -years-wwf

And I can see why it would be easy to be pessimistic. I guess the only thing an individual can do is try to be neither optimistic nor pessimistic but try to see it as a problem in need of a solution, and try to figure out how we can make our own tiny, tiny contributions to the solution.

-- Updated Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:24 am to add the following --
I scream my head off at every opportunity that the world awaken to the coming multiple catastrophes.
If you still have the vitality to do this at the age of 91, perhaps that's a cause for at least some optimism in itself.
Georgeanna
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Re: Reality is a distraction

Post by Georgeanna »

Burning ghost wrote:Georgeanna -

I was referring to something Jung commented on. He used the analogy of the storm cloud on our psychological perspective. To rise above a certain problem allows us to understand how significant it is and that we need not be in the middle of it to appreciate its danger. He would say we do not overcome and destroy our problems, but merely outgrow them and come to appreciate them from a distance. We know they are dangerous yet being able to wrestle ourselves away from their direct control allows us to adapt.

It was a fleeting attempt to get something across to Jan :
The growth of human power over natural forces does not appear to me to be accompanied by human growth in wisdom and fundamental consideration for each other so this unfortunate combination does not contain the elements required for much hope. I am very sorry.
It is not really "power over natural forces" at all. It is the ability to appreciate with awe the lack of control over nature and to gain perspective. There is no "power over nature" only alteration in perspective and location appropriate to the danger. I do not live in fear of meteor strikes every waking moment, but I fully understand I could be snuffed out tomorrow by something less massive and likely seemingly innocent and beautiful.

If life has hit you hard repeatedly you're likely running in circles within the storm. It is possible to get to the eye or to climb the mountains, and there you can appreciate a moment of beauty that surpasses the hardship and suffering.

Human wisdom is often subdued by pessimism and fear. Given that we're literally "hard-wired" for optimism I think its a happy balance. Maybe the mass population on Earth now is pushing humanity toward less of the individual optimism and more toward the group dynamic of pessimism. I gues this would mean that "wisdom" as a useful operator works best within smaller human groups than on a global scale? I guess we'll find out one way or the other.

In the meantime I plan to keep on trying to "do my best".
Thanks for clarification of your one-liner: 'Don't storm clouds look beautiful in the distance though'.
Yes, I responded in a fairly literal sense. However, the other psychological perspective and analogy didn't escape me. The fact that it is one of Jung's is new to me.
From what you write above, I can't say that I am in agreement with his perspective on the reality of life's problems. (If I have understood correctly)
It is not just a case of outgrowing them, passively - but yes, we can and do view them objectively and at a distance.
I mentioned in my post#18, the two perspectives - distant and near.
When distant, we can feel safe, even if danger is looming. When danger is up close and personal, action needs to be taken. How that is done, can be up to the individual, or collectively.
Depending on context, experience, knowledge and wisdom, different tools or coping mechanisms are used. Some use distraction.
Jan Sand
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Re: Reality is a distraction

Post by Jan Sand »

When your life is under immediate threat you've got to move very quickly and very intelligently to save it.
The lives of the whole world are in terrible danger and waiting for things to change doesn't work when the only prospect is that it is changing for the worst. We may already be past the point of saving it as people are dying in India for the temperature rise right now and that rise is still going on and the killing areas are increasing.
Georgeanna
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Re: Reality is a distraction

Post by Georgeanna »

Jan Sand wrote:When your life is under immediate threat you've got to move very quickly and very intelligently to save it.
The lives of the whole world are in terrible danger and waiting for things to change doesn't work when the only prospect is that it is changing for the worst. We may already be past the point of saving it as people are dying in India for the temperature rise right now and that rise is still going on and the killing areas are increasing.
Indeed. It is unfortunate that as long as humans are fairly comfortable in their own bubbles of reality that apathy seems to rule. The dangers are not always apparent until they are directed affected. However, as you will know, technology has made it so that people can see the world from other perspectives - perhaps there is too much knowledge, and conflicting views. Confusion reigns.
I do see evidence that there is more awareness due to people like David Attenborough. He offers us all a look at astounding reality in Blue Planet 2.
Jan Sand
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Re: Reality is a distraction

Post by Jan Sand »

There is very little time left. The major forces of the fossil fuel industry who are strongly backed by the Trump regime control most of the major information outlets and new legislation to subdue the internet now in progress will subdue any attempt at progress. When the government was under Obama the quick and thunderous destruction of the Occupy movement clearly indicates that Trump may be personally offensive but it is the same pressures as Obama and Clinton. And the conferences on climate change are inneffective talk. The only thing that might save us is an immense popular reaction and there is no sign of that.
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Burning ghost
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Re: Reality is a distraction

Post by Burning ghost »

It's a symptom Georgeanna.

it is not a Jungian quote, merely something that came to mind that I'd read of his about perspective and the self.

-- Updated November 28th, 2017, 5:58 am to add the following --

The symptom is the environmental meltdown btw. The cause has little to do with the physical burning of fossil fuels. The whole socio-political system is teetering and the cause it about to be "overcome".
AKA badgerjelly
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