How accurate is our perception?

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Woodart
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Re: How accurate is our perception?

Post by Woodart »

Eaglerising wrote:You're making this far more complicated than it needs to be.
Perception is by its very nature subjective. I think your question is leading towards – objectivity. Science attempts to be objective. The problem is scientists have different views of what is real. Mark Twain comes to mind – “there are lies, damned lies and statistics”.
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Re: How accurate is our perception?

Post by Fooloso4 »

Eaglerising:
You have a perception (a composite view) of yourself. This view includes your personality, physical appearance, and behavior. In other words, how do you see yourself? Likewise, others have a perception of you. I asked if those perceptions are accurate or inaccurate because either they are all accurate or none of them are accurate.
We see ourselves from a different perspective than anyone else does.That perspective, however, is not fixed even though it cannot be transcended. I may come to regard myself differently at different times. In some respects my perception of myself may be accurate but not in others. Take, for example, the problem of body dysmorphia. From the other direction two people may see me in very different ways and there may be something true and something false is what both of them see. I can see no reason to conclude that all perceptions are accurate or none of them are accurate.
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Re: How accurate is our perception?

Post by -1- »

This is so painful to watch, this thread is.

EagleRising proposed that he does not trust his senses to report reality.

Then people started to not understand this simple concept. They asked for clarification.

EagleRising said, "Okay, for instance, I see myself differently than how others see me." THIS WAS AN EXAMPLE, PEOPLE.

Then people came back and charged, "this is not what you said in the opening post."

Ayvey. I am really sorry, but this is a really simple concept... why is everyone else so daft about understanding it? And please never NEVER charge that an example is not the same as the proposal.

It boggles my mind. How can you guys call yourselves philosophers?

-------------

I know what you will say now, people. "Stop calling us guys. We're not all guys." Or "well, did you read the opening post? It says nothing about the self and others." Or "who are you to pass judgment over us?" Or "I never called myself a philosopher. Why do you call all of us "philosophers"?

Something is not right about this. If you guys can't grasp this concept that EagleRising presented, then what CAN you grasp?
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Eaglerising
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Re: How accurate is our perception?

Post by Eaglerising »

Sparticus – Yes, you are right. After I posted it, I could see that I was getting ahead of myself. I didn't even define "perception." So I changed it so that it would be less confusing, but it did the opposite. I also saw that we weren't on the same page and needed to get an agreement on the word perception. So I provided some examples to get an agreement on perception. i apologize for the confusion.

I am used to talking to people, face to face. I do poorly communicating using this type of medium. I cam here so I could improve upon it.

-- Updated April 4th, 2017, 5:11 pm to add the following --

Maybe it would be wise of me to scrap this string and start fresh with a new one. For some unknown reason my dyslexia has been worse than it usually is lately. Thus, the typo's, which adds to the confusion.
Woodart
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Re: How accurate is our perception?

Post by Woodart »

-1- wrote:This is so painful to watch, this thread is.

EagleRising proposed that he does not trust his senses to report reality.

Then people started to not understand this simple concept. They asked for clarification.

EagleRising said, "Okay, for instance, I see myself differently than how others see me." THIS WAS AN EXAMPLE, PEOPLE.

Then people came back and charged, "this is not what you said in the opening post."

Ayvey. I am really sorry, but this is a really simple concept... why is everyone else so daft about understanding it? And please never NEVER charge that an example is not the same as the proposal.

It boggles my mind. How can you guys call yourselves philosophers?

-------------

I know what you will say now, people. "Stop calling us guys. We're not all guys." Or "well, did you read the opening post? It says nothing about the self and others." Or "who are you to pass judgment over us?" Or "I never called myself a philosopher. Why do you call all of us "philosophers"?

Something is not right about this. If you guys can't grasp this concept that EagleRising presented, then what CAN you grasp?

I think you are right – Eaglerising is asking for an authority beyond his own perception. He is asking for God. I think this very worthy – aren’t we all asking for this authority? Even atheists would really like to be proven wrong. Why not – wouldn’t that solve all our big questions? The problem is that the “answer of God” is not definitive in the design of the current universe. God did not design the universe definitively for humans. Why, because we humans, I believe, are required to emerge. We have been given tools – consciousness, volition, love and others; so that we may discover ourselves.

Let me ask a simple question – is it better to buy a piece of furniture or is it better to build it? If you have ever made a piece of clothing for yourself or anything of excellence; it becomes a treasure. Philosophy is about building a vision; a picture of who you are and what the world is. Of course many people align themselves with a book (Jewish, Christian, Muslim, etc.) and convince themselves they have found “the authority”. I find all religious books confusing and contradicting; and they all contradict each other. Each person on Earth is an agent and required to choose something – theist, atheist, agnostic or no authority except self. I think the current design of the universe is pretty clever. Actually I think it is brilliant beyond all imagination.
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Re: How accurate is our perception?

Post by -1- »

You're right, Woodart, without an authority you can't decide if your perception is right. But the authority you can only sense with your senses, which gives you a perception -- even if 'tis the very God talking to you, you can only rely on your perceptions to accept that authority. And that is the crux. Authority can't get through the phalanx of perception, so to speak.

In other words, if God appeared to me right now, I would only know it's Him by sight, hearing, smell, and touch. Maybe taste. (If he does to me what he did to Mary.) But beyond that I have no way of assuring myself He is God, and the way I do it (via perception) gives me no assurance at all.
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Woodart
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Re: How accurate is our perception?

Post by Woodart »

-1- wrote: I would only know it's Him by sight, hearing, smell, and touch. Maybe taste. (If he does to me what he did to Mary.)
I think you are now wrong -1- God most often is a She and only appears as a He on special occasions. So chances are you will only see Her, but I think She has enough tricks up Her sleeve to convince skeptics like yourself. So rest assured - :lol:
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Re: How accurate is our perception?

Post by Eaglerising »

First, i want to leave God and religion out of this discourse.

Second, I am not looking for any authority, but rather the absence of authority. My perception, being the authority it is, causes me to think it is accurate. So much so, that I respond as if it were accurate. And, I defend anything that conflicts or opposes my perception.

All the mistakes and errors I have made has allowed me to see and experience that my perception isn't as accurate as I thought.

Therefore, I am wondering if there is a way in which I can check the accuracy or validity of my perception whenever I encounter something which opposes or conflicts with it instead of defending it?
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Re: How accurate is our perception?

Post by Sy Borg »

Woodart wrote:
-1- wrote: I would only know it's Him by sight, hearing, smell, and touch. Maybe taste. (If he does to me what he did to Mary.)
I think you are now wrong -1- God most often is a She and only appears as a He on special occasions. So chances are you will only see Her, but I think She has enough tricks up Her sleeve to convince skeptics like yourself. So rest assured - :lol:
I'm not so sure, Woody. I have had peak experiences that were, well, incredibly, um, "goddish" lol yet I remain agnostic. I experienced these tremendously interesting, beautiful and enlightening experiences via internal rather than external senses - after all, we have about sixteen senses aside from the "big five" and it could not have been much more Godlike. What can one make of having this incredible sense of unconditional love and, especially, being completely understood in a way that no one can understand another mind?

So why don't I believe implicitly? Why the doubt? Clearly I don't quite trust myself and my perceptions. After all, how many examples have experiments given of our perceptions being unreliable, no matter how evolutionarily efficacious - thousands?

So the experiences made me a more open-minded agnostic but I find it hard to empathise with those who assume these experiences to be 100% what they appear to be. It might not be, even if that's the most attractive possibility. It may also have been extraordinary reflections from my deepest sense of self, which many would call "God" anyway. Even so, why associate such beauty with the name of the vain and violent deity of the Old Testament?

PS. Sorry Wood. I wrote this at the same time as your request to de-God the thread.
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Re: How accurate is our perception?

Post by Woodart »

Eaglerising wrote:
All the mistakes and errors I have made has allowed me to see and experience that my perception isn't as accurate as I thought.
Well join the club – we are all in the same boat.
Eaglerising wrote:
Therefore, I am wondering if there is a way in which I can check the accuracy or validity of my perception whenever I encounter something which opposes or conflicts with it instead of defending it?
What I now find confusing is that you are asking if there is an empirical authority and at the same time saying “My perception, being the authority it is, causes me to think it is accurate”. So you want your cake and to eat it too – so do we all. Aside from God, there is religion which is usually not the same thing. There are medications, LSD, Google as a fact checker – how about a good friend? I now think your chasing your tail.
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Re: How accurate is our perception?

Post by Eaglerising »

Woodart – Please don't put words into my mouth or falsely assume something.

Experiencing numerous mistakes and errors allowed me to see that my perception was faulty as opposed to an authority. I realize other people make mistakes. Most accept their mistakes as being normal as opposed to questioning and challenging their perception.

Seeing my mistakes allowed me to see that I had some flaws in my perception, I was wondering if there were any other clues or indicators that would assist me in correcting my perception. For example, is contradicting your self one of those clues or indicators? Is defensiveness another?
Woodart
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Re: How accurate is our perception?

Post by Woodart »

Greta wrote:
PS. Sorry Wood. I wrote this at the same time as your request to de-God the thread.

Greta it was not I who requested to de-God the thread – it was Eaglerising. I believe Eaglerising is confused and does not know what he wants.

Greta wrote: So the experiences made me a more open-minded agnostic but I find it hard to empathise with those who assume these experiences to be 100% what they appear to be. It might not be, even if that's the most attractive possibility. It may also have been extraordinary reflections from my deepest sense of self, which many would call "God" anyway. Even so, why associate such beauty with the name of the vain and violent deity of the Old Testament?
A divine experience is precious and treasured. I would suggest that you create your own conception and perception of God (and I think you already have) and stay as far away as possible from any biblical association of what God is – unless that what appeals to you. I think most religious books are much more harmful than helpful. I am a theist, but I try not to share my divine experiences because they are personal to me alone. No one can really understand and appreciate these experiences but me. Organized religion is a crutch and makes most people hobble around – IMHO.
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Re: How accurate is our perception?

Post by Nick_A »

Woodart wrote:
-1- wrote: I would only know it's Him by sight, hearing, smell, and touch. Maybe taste. (If he does to me what he did to Mary.)
I think you are now wrong -1- God most often is a She and only appears as a He on special occasions. So chances are you will only see Her, but I think She has enough tricks up Her sleeve to convince skeptics like yourself. So rest assured - :lol:
Of course God is a she. Do you think a male would have designed a universe filled with so much conflict and chaos? Of course not. The feminists are right. God is a she :wink:
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
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Re: How accurate is our perception?

Post by Sy Borg »

Woodart wrote:
Greta wrote:
PS. Sorry Wood. I wrote this at the same time as your request to de-God the thread.
Greta it was not I who requested to de-God the thread – it was Eaglerising. I believe Eaglerising is confused and does not know what he wants.
Oops. Sorry!
So the experiences made me a more open-minded agnostic but I find it hard to empathise with those who assume these experiences to be 100% what they appear to be. It might not be, even if that's the most attractive possibility. It may also have been extraordinary reflections from my deepest sense of self, which many would call "God" anyway. Even so, why associate such beauty with the name of the vain and violent deity of the Old Testament?
Woodart wrote:A divine experience is precious and treasured. I would suggest that you create your own conception and perception of God (and I think you already have) and stay as far away as possible from any biblical association of what God is – unless that what appeals to you. I think most religious books are much more harmful than helpful. I am a theist, but I try not to share my divine experiences because they are personal to me alone. No one can really understand and appreciate these experiences but me. Organized religion is a crutch and makes most people hobble around – IMHO.
Sure, I treat the Bible as I do all myths - an interesting metaphorical account of people's impressions of reality at the time. I remain agnostic because I am uncertain about the nature of reality. I am as open to the less crazy versions of God as I am to a living universe. I am not open to fully mechanistic "billiard ball" universe because that view, as with classical theism, involves very heavy blinkers.
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Re: How accurate is our perception?

Post by -1- »

Woodart wrote:
-1- wrote: I would only know it's Him by sight, hearing, smell, and touch. Maybe taste. (If he does to me what he did to Mary.)
I think you are now wrong -1- God most often is a She and only appears as a He on special occasions. So chances are you will only see Her, but I think She has enough tricks up Her sleeve to convince skeptics like yourself. So rest assured - :lol:
Yes, it would take much less than the miracle of a sexual experience with a young Goddess to convince me She is God. But that's only due to my gullibility.

In that sense, I have encountered, let's see... about two Goddesses and a few demi-Goddesses. And a whole bunch of Earthlings.

But then again, I've been in the presence of several other Goddesses, who would not give in... so despite the miracle amiss, I still experienced them.

If we accept your definition of what a God is.

I still say God's a Him. Because 99% of the people in the world call God a He. Seven and a half billion people can't all be wrong. But 100 million people can. Only going on the strength that they oppose the seven-and-a-half billion.

Religions are so democratic!! Sex of a God, for instance, is decided by plebiscite.
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