The most difficult question...why should one live?

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Webplodder
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Re: The most difficult question...why should one live?

Post by Webplodder »

Grotto19 wrote:I was posed with a difficult query, perhaps the first for which I had no answer nor an inkling or direction to head in. I was speaking to him about his depression, and it turned out not to be depression exactly it was more of an existential angst. You see this person had no idea what to do with his life.

He asked what should I do? To which I asked what do you want to do? What would you like to achieve? What matters to you? To which he said I don’t know. I asked “what matters to you”. He said “I like my dog but he will be gone in a few years.” I said “what about your family and your kids?” He said “they are almost all gone, my funeral won’t have many at it”.

At that moment his problem became my own problem as I too realized I am living for nothing. I too have no kids nor much family. And I too don’t even know why I go to work each day. I tell myself there is a reason, yet I leave that reason ambiguous as I in truth don’t have one. If not for procreation what purpose do any of us have? I could not answer his question, I had nothing.

I reached for things like experiences or some form of hedonism, but honestly as we age those arguments lose their weight. For the first time in a long time I was rendered without an argument. I couldn’t think of a reason he should do anything nor one for myself.

So my query is what is the point of life for the non-breeder? When that non breeder reaches an age where hedonism becomes a non-issue what is his or her reason to press on. Most people side against self-extinction, but my question is on what grounds? For I reached and could not think of a compelling answer. I would love to hear your thoughts. A have had these considerations before but trying to help another really made them acute for me as well. I will continue to go to work and live but I cannot say why. My only justification is a weak because not doing so seems wrong. And that’s a very weak argument.
I think it is a question of trying to focus one's mind on whatever interests you. There is so much nowadays to stimulate the mind, and to focus too much on negative thoughts wastes the wealth of rewarding material available. You mention being a non-breeder but people are more than vehicles of procreation and can be of great value to others by way of interacting with
them. Your participation on this MB is one obvious example by bringing pleasure to other people who discuss stuff with you.

There's plenty of people who have had kids yet don't do a lot for others so I don't think it is wise to reduce our existence to passing on our genes. Obviously, some people have to, otherwise the species would die out, however, there have been and are, plenty of people who make valuable contributions to society in terms of science, mathematics, psychology, teaching, caring and so forth. Even running an Internet MB is a worthy and valuable contribution to human happiness and there are a hundred and one other ways that a person can be a valuable asset to society.

I think everyone has talents and potential so perhaps you should have told your friend not to underestimate his value to enrich the world, if only he might open his eyes to it. I think of all the hospital workers, many of which are overworked and underpaid, and the dedication they have to keep them going and then your friend. What is the difference between them and him? I think the answer is one of perspective.
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Re: The most difficult question...why should one live?

Post by Papus79 »

My best advice - by the time you spend enough time wondering what's the point or even contemplating the question of ending it, it's pretty much time to cut loose and march to the beat of your own drum. That means paying a lot less attention to what people want you to be in general (especially where its none of their business). Wherever your responsibilities allow it find leeway to do what you really want and to introspect into the question of what kinds of things you'd really enjoy. I have to say something else quite honestly - I really don't think most people have explored nearly as much as they think they have of what's out there to be done, to be engaged in, and quite often the 'everything's the same' outlook comes from papering over a world they don't really know all that well with a sheet of their own assumptions and not realizing it's a projection.

I also think, if you are a psychotherapist, that you may need to challenge this guy's assurance that he knows the whole world and its value inside and out the way he thinks he does. Ask him to introspect and see if he can think of one good hobby or special interest that he's maybe looked at but never taken up, not just throw himself at it but really take a good while of asking himself - if he were going to take up a hobby - what would interest him. There are other parts of our brains that typically answer that better than our conscious minds can and his inquiry itself should help the answer come around in time.
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Belindi
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Re: The most difficult question...why should one live?

Post by Belindi »

Papus79 wrote:My best advice - by the time you spend enough time wondering what's the point or even contemplating the question of ending it, it's pretty much time to cut loose and march to the beat of your own drum. That means paying a lot less attention to what people want you to be in general (especially where its none of their business). Wherever your responsibilities allow it find leeway to do what you really want and to introspect into the question of what kinds of things you'd really enjoy. I have to say something else quite honestly - I really don't think most people have explored nearly as much as they think they have of what's out there to be done, to be engaged in, and quite often the 'everything's the same' outlook comes from papering over a world they don't really know all that well with a sheet of their own assumptions and not realizing it's a projection.

I also think, if you are a psychotherapist, that you may need to challenge this guy's assurance that he knows the whole world and its value inside and out the way he thinks he does. Ask him to introspect and see if he can think of one good hobby or special interest that he's maybe looked at but never taken up, not just throw himself at it but really take a good while of asking himself - if he were going to take up a hobby - what would interest him. There are other parts of our brains that typically answer that better than our conscious minds can and his inquiry itself should help the answer come around in time.

I quite agree with Papus. Without putting words in Papus's mouth I want to add that it also makes sense that you cannot help man or beast if you are not in possession of your own soul. Okay the word 'soul' is often misunderstood or disliked. Let's say "possession of one's own self".
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Re: The most difficult question...why should one live?

Post by LuckyR »

Grotto19 wrote:I was posed with a difficult query, perhaps the first for which I had no answer nor an inkling or direction to head in. I was speaking to him about his depression, and it turned out not to be depression exactly it was more of an existential angst. You see this person had no idea what to do with his life.

He asked what should I do? To which I asked what do you want to do? What would you like to achieve? What matters to you? To which he said I don’t know. I asked “what matters to you”. He said “I like my dog but he will be gone in a few years.” I said “what about your family and your kids?” He said “they are almost all gone, my funeral won’t have many at it”.

At that moment his problem became my own problem as I too realized I am living for nothing. I too have no kids nor much family. And I too don’t even know why I go to work each day. I tell myself there is a reason, yet I leave that reason ambiguous as I in truth don’t have one. If not for procreation what purpose do any of us have? I could not answer his question, I had nothing.

I reached for things like experiences or some form of hedonism, but honestly as we age those arguments lose their weight. For the first time in a long time I was rendered without an argument. I couldn’t think of a reason he should do anything nor one for myself.

So my query is what is the point of life for the non-breeder? When that non breeder reaches an age where hedonism becomes a non-issue what is his or her reason to press on. Most people side against self-extinction, but my question is on what grounds? For I reached and could not think of a compelling answer. I would love to hear your thoughts. A have had these considerations before but trying to help another really made them acute for me as well. I will continue to go to work and live but I cannot say why. My only justification is a weak because not doing so seems wrong. And that’s a very weak argument.
Here's a bit of advice: if speaking to someone makes you "depressed" that person is clinically depressed.
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Re: The most difficult question...why should one live?

Post by Eduk »

Here's a bit of advice: if speaking to someone makes you "depressed" that person is clinically depressed.
What a depressing way of looking at the world.
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Re: The most difficult question...why should one live?

Post by Belindi »

I like the company of a depressed friend as long as he is articulate and tells me something I had not known before. Stubbornly optimistic people tend to be a little superficial superficial people are boring. Mind you I am not saying that clinical depression is thereby a good thing .It is bad and it can be unendurable for the sufferer. Ennui is typical of clinical depression, and is a long way from common or garden boredom. Nevertheless there are a few very interesting and lovable people who can discuss their ennui and its issues.
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Re: The most difficult question...why should one live?

Post by LuckyR »

Eduk wrote:
Here's a bit of advice: if speaking to someone makes you "depressed" that person is clinically depressed.
What a depressing way of looking at the world.
You misunderstand. Clinical depression is not a pejorative (in my opinion). Though the advice is commonly accurate.
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Re: The most difficult question...why should one live?

Post by Belindi »

LuckyR wrote:
Clinical depression is not a pejorative (in my opinion)
.

We must get rid of the social stigma which mental illness carries.
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Sy Borg
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Re: The most difficult question...why should one live?

Post by Sy Borg »

If the issue is clinical depression, then there's an obvious answer - consult with a professional.

If the issue is an existential malaise, then the prescription needs to be more philosophical than pharmaceutical (at least not anti depressants :).

This next comment will seem out of left field but, what of all the people who have had near death experiences and their reports? Almost all of them with memories say they no longer fear death, that life is beautiful and they couldn't see it beforehand, and so forth. I find this heartening since I tend to take most seriously the views of those who have "been there" rather than theorising third parties. It seems to me that reality is more interesting than we dare to think but less interesting than many claim to believe :)

Aside from luck, life is largely about how you look at it. As with musical instruments, great life circumstances are easy to get harmonising and poor quality ones can still sound beautiful if played carefully by a skilled musician, but the possibilities are much more limited. Given that everything in reality changes to some extent all of the time, it's unreasonable to expect our moods to buck that trend, so our moods go up and down. Some are more volatile than others - higher highs and lower lows - others are steadier, less iconoclastic. That often changes during a lifetime too. Societies logically benefit from having each, and those in between.

Certainly many have eschewed the chance to breed to pursue other, more distinctly human, activities in business, science, the arts or humanities. Many are devoted to service or at least devoted to the art of it. Then there is that rather underestimated and mysterious aspect of life - simply being. Is it really compulsory to devote oneself to doing stuff to "feed the machine"? What of the moment? The roses left unsmelled? The potentially uplifting views glossed over by intrusive thought. The antics of humans, who are without doubt the funniest species (apologies to puppy, kitten and monkey aficionados).

Then there's the sky! Numerous times I've been lifted from some mood due to some idiot social situation (inevitably some kind of misunderstanding) by simply looking up and appreciating its moods, patterns and colours, and how tiny our foments are as we spin and orbit our way through an impossibly grand cosmic stage. And what of life itself? Everywhere, countless beings, large and small, brained or not, human or not, living anonymous lives of triumph, tragedy and, most often, grafting quietly along doing the best they can. They are all pretty interesting if we grant them our attention.

I suppose this incoherence is aimed at cheering up our less happy members. I've been there, spending years in the pits of hell and I came out the other side, so it can be done. Much of it was luck and I didn't always make unwise life decisions. Still, moment's entropy - the wrong place at the wrong time for me and mine - and that's over. It's surprising how life circumstances, and our mindsets, can change over the years. People tell you how things change as you get older, but nothing can make clear to us just how surprising the passing of decades can be.
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Re: The most difficult question...why should one live?

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Belindi wrote:I like the changing seasons and the uncertain weather both of which are challenging and happen without any input from me.
Yay, climate change!!

You are the first person I personally hear is happy about the global warming.

I mean, why not?

-- Updated 2017 June 2nd, 8:09 pm to add the following --

Whatever rocks your boat. So to speak.

-- Updated 2017 June 2nd, 8:10 pm to add the following --
Belindi wrote: We must get rid of the social stigma which mental illness carries.
Yay!! Let's focus, instead, on the personal tragedy and the loss of quality of life for the family of the sufferer.

-- Updated 2017 June 2nd, 8:15 pm to add the following --
Greta wrote:what of all the people who have had near death experiences and their reports? Almost all of them with memories say they no longer fear death, that life is beautiful and they couldn't see it beforehand, and so forth.
This sounds good, except we can't tell from here how close to a death experience is a near-death experience. Is it really touching a death-like state, or is it not? There is no way to decide this.

Those are the true experts who have completely died, and have their bodies decomposed. But those experts remain silent on the issue.
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Sy Borg
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Re: The most difficult question...why should one live?

Post by Sy Borg »

-1- wrote:
Belindi wrote:I like the changing seasons and the uncertain weather both of which are challenging and happen without any input from me.
Yay, climate change!!

You are the first person I personally hear is happy about the global warming.
Come on, 1, you are better than this! (I hope). The weather was chaotic long before climate change. Belinda was obviously referring to weather generally, not the additional issues of climate change. I have always found the weather's moods and forms fascinating too.

-- Updated 02 Jun 2017, 19:17 to add the following --
-1- wrote:
Greta wrote:what of all the people who have had near death experiences and their reports? Almost all of them with memories say they no longer fear death, that life is beautiful and they couldn't see it beforehand, and so forth.
This sounds good, except we can't tell from here how close to a death experience is a near-death experience. Is it really touching a death-like state, or is it not? There is no way to decide this.

Those are the true experts who have completely died, and have their bodies decomposed. But those experts remain silent on the issue.
Yes, the best authorities are not available. So I'll go with next best. I don't know how close they came but it's closer than anyone else ... so far :)
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Re: The most difficult question...why should one live?

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Why should one live? I have one reason and one reason only: my extreme fear of death.
Come on, 1, you are better than this! (I hope). The weather was chaotic long before climate change. Belinda was obviously referring to weather generally, not the additional issues of climate change.
In retrospect, I guess you're right. But how did you think of this?

-- Updated 2017 June 2nd, 8:22 pm to add the following --
Greta wrote: Yes, the best authorities are not available. So I'll go with next best. I don't know how close they came but it's closer than anyone else ... so far :)
I don't know, Greta... close only counts in hand grenades, horseshoes, and breaking the wind.

In my opinion you are either dead or not dead. Live or not live. The boundary can't be criss-crossed.(*)

Not to say that this opinion of mine is the absolute truth... but to me, personally, it is.

(*) Cats are a singular exception to this rule.
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Sy Borg
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Re: The most difficult question...why should one live?

Post by Sy Borg »

-1- wrote:Why should one live? I have one reason and one reason only: my extreme fear of death.
Come on, 1, you are better than this! (I hope). The weather was chaotic long before climate change. Belinda was obviously referring to weather generally, not the additional issues of climate change.
In retrospect, I guess you're right. But how did you think of this?
Extreme fear of death. My oath, yes! :lol:

Firstly, I know Belinda to be an exceptionally decent human being. Secondly, I was a weather nerd from a young age so I know well what she was talking about.

The sky never ceases to blow me away (no cyclone jokes please :). I can get in a state were I start feeling as if the human world is actual reality. Then I walk outside and realise that most of the things that I and others were obsessing about was just froth and bubble. But it seems so compelling and all consuming! And of course the ramifications of human interactions on our lives can be huge. BUT ... practical is not necessarily real. We are like blinkered racehorses, efficiently running towards the finish line, but we should not for a second believe that the racetrack is all that there is - or all that matters.

PS. I still see the NDE people as being in the best position to comment on the nature of death.
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Re: The most difficult question...why should one live?

Post by Belindi »

Thanks Greta. :)

I am fortunate in not having to endure exposure to dangerous extremes of weather. I think that what I was meaning when I said I like weather and the changing seasons is that I don't have to act to make stuff happen . I knew a brave man who had manic depression most of his life and who liked climbing high mountains as the challenges stopped his depression. I mean, even when other people disappoint the natural environment never fails as there is always something unpredictable to see or to deal with and it is sometimes beautiful as well as unpredictable.

In answer to -1- I am afraid of man-made climate change . Trump's decision about the Paris agreement is dangerous and immoral. Perhaps he is genuinely stupid, I would not know. I firmly support all efforts to stop damage from man- made climate change, and I still hope that Trump and the more ignorant Republicans will not have done too much permanent damage.
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Re: The most difficult question...why should one live?

Post by Jamonit »

The reason one should live is because no one chose to be alive in the first place. No one necessarily chose the idea that there should be a reason to live. Most of us apparently picked up from others. It seems to be a very powerful idea or else we wouldn´t discuss it at such length. However, it also shows that there need not be a reason to live or reasons. We could just as well, simply live. Remember that our ideas are social and if most people think there should be reasons to live, then many people will come up with some. Also, the structures of the world we were born into will very much influence the "reasons" we give for living. I´m pretty sure that primitive man had no such reasons. Why? Because the societies he/she was born, into most likely didn´t think there should be any. They might not have even questioned that. Perhaps they did, maybe they didn´t.

-- Updated June 3rd, 2017, 10:34 am to add the following --

To add to the above written, perhaps the idea of having "a reason to live" came about out of desperation. It could have started as someone under terrible stress or duress and he/she knew of the possibility of his/her own death by suicide. If we discuss reasons under more relaxing circumstances, one in which he have a memory of desperation or duress and/or one in which we do not know that type of desperation, our observations or comments may vary.
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