Tarot Cards and Divinations

[Burning ghost]

I want to open up a topic here that does not look philosophical on the surface or even logical.

What I want to do is offer Tarot readings to people about any given subject if required.

If no one wants this I can instead simply ask what use Tarot Readings may have or do you simply regard them as utterly useless and delusional?

Can you see the possible employment of reason within this technique of divination?

[Prothero]

I regard fortune telling, astrology, tarot card readings and even prayer, in pretty much the same category, activities which if they have an effect primarily have an effect only on the person engaged in the activity. Those effects may not be negligible to that person and those affected by his/her actions and decisions.

[Burning ghost]

Yes, exactly!

Now can you see the possible psychological benefit of this?

[Eduk]

If divination is true it would be of obvious, unquestionable benefit.
If divination is false but you think it is true then any benefit is incidental and such incidental benefit is likely better achieved through different means. Not to mention it would also likely be of net harm rather than net benefit.
If divination is false and you think it is false then it is no different than many activities and of similar benefit.

[Burning ghost]

Let me explain a little about what I mean.

One thing you come to obverse if you've ever used these methods is that how the "signs" are read are very much open to a multitude of explanations. This is a common technique used by those that say they contact the dead member of relatives (whether they believe they do or not is besides the point.) The general pattern is to use very vague starting points and then allow the subject to feed in the meaning.

With tarot cards and most other popular methods of divination the complexity and possibilities are so vast and so vague that they can as good as be interpreted in any way the reader wishes. If the subject of the reading seeing all the possible answers produced by the method they see only what they want to see, and in some cases, what they don't want to see.

I have done this a few times on people and explained what the cards and orders of cards are meant to represent about their question. You get the subject to focus on the subject and then you explain the possible meanings. What I have noticed is that they see only ONE clear message where there are multiple interpretations that can even be taken as the opposite meaning of what they see.

As an example one I asked someone to think and focus on the question. I told them not to tell me his question and also told him I would show him how Tarot can be used in a practical way. He couldn't decide about meeting an ex as it turned out and so wanted to know what the best thing to do was. I made the reading and had him shuffle the cards and such, then I laid out the cards and explained the possible interpretations. What I believe is true is that he already knew the best course of action about meeting his ex again. He understood from what I said that he should not meet her, and when he told me the question he had wanted an answer too I actually thought the reading said more or less the exact opposite.

I explained this to him and said what I thought had happened which is this ...

Deep down he knew what he should do and needed confirmation of some kind. The deep focus on the question brought the attention of thoughts to surround this particular dilemma. His subconscious and unconscious responded to the cards and the reading as it saw best fitting. It was effectively something like a psychological placebo. The cards didn't tell him what to do they just allowed his subconscious and his true desires to come to the fore and interpret the cards as he saw best.

He then asked me should I go and see her then. I simply said you now know what you think is best so decide on that. I made no claim that another reading would give a similar or different answer. This is because the subject, if allowed to pick out the meaning they want, will arrive at some decision. He found the process very useful and it certainly helped him understand more about his personal concerns surrounding the dilemma.

The divination is not a false one. Only the interpretation is all that matters and the divination performs its task best the more complex and vague it is. All humans understand ritual and order. This is very much an important part of the process that allows the mind to focus on the problem.

I have used this technique a few times myself and recorded the readings. It is quite funny to see myself fall prey to the same things that the above person did. Even when I know the process the use of it still shines through and I believe in the moment that my interpretation is taking into account all possible interpretations. A few days, or even hours later I can return to the reading I see that there was quite contrary possible interpretations that I was blind to at the time.

In this sense the benefit of Tarot in this manner is to gain some personal insight. What is really bizarre is wishful thinking does not work. You may think you want A instead of B, but you may be unable to interpret the cards as suggesting B as the best option. This process can, and does, sometimes tell you ecactly what you don't want to hear. It is not just set up to favour your dreams, it is set up to show you whether or not you really deep down think your dreams are attainable or mere fancy.

More simply put it has use as a therapeutic method as well as showing something quite human. We all know how easily we are willing to believe the most crazy ideas if they fit into our ideals. What I see this technique as doing is to strip away those beliefs and reveal what your whole neural cognitive make-up makes of the sporadic mess of cards flung before it.

If you look at different processes of divination and magick they employ these psychological machination in some form.

note: I am not for an instant saying these techniques can read the future. Predictions of the physical future are clearly the area science deals with. What I am lookin gat here is the subjective personal view of the world and revealing you to yourself, and understanding your beliefs and plans, and there applications better.

[Eduk]

First of all you are talking about cold reading, a well documented technique used by con artists the world over.

To my knowledge these techniques have brought no great psychological breakthroughs in a repeatable and dependable manner. For example for the person who has lost a loved one to be told by a physic that the loved one is there and 'happy' can be very believable for some people. It is clearly what they 'want' to hear. But is it what they should hear? Is it doing them 'good'? Is paying a con artist really making their life 'better'. All highly debatable in my opinion.

Regarding your specific case, you are presumably not making money or attempting to con anyone in a deliberate fashion. But are you sure you aren't conning them anyway? Is their interpretation really telling them useful information? Is this the most reliable way of getting that useful information? Is there a chance that harmful information could arise? How would you protect against this eventuality?

Personally if you are messing about asking questions about should I see my ex or not then there is no real opportunity for any great harm or self deception. It's just a harmless, fun game and I have no issue. Maybe it is eye opening if only to see how easy cold reading is (a very worthwhile lesson I wish everyone knew).

But if you are suggesting you could really help people with real problems then I think you need to be careful? Are you doing a better job than trained professionals? Personally I would recommend conducting a proper controlled experiment If such an experiment has not already been done.

[Burning ghost]

The point is to do it yourself NOT read others! That is nuts! When you see others interpretations then you see how they've ignored other interpretations.

Not all cold readers are con artists. Some people who do those things genuinely believe they are contacting the dead. Delusion begets delusion!

We know some basic mechanism of the brain and know certain responses can be prompted. Of course I am not saying any particular method is fool proof nor that it would work for everyone. There are numerous psychological studies that have shown us have symbols and prompts affect our decisions. This is the reason when I do this myself I leave a period of time before returning and seeing the other interpretations I was blind to.

I don't see how this could be studied well tbh. It is a kind of self psychoanalysis (something that is dangerous in itself and the reason why many people who practice these things get a bit deluded.)

Anyway, this extends into other areas such as propaganda and Jungian theories of Archetypes. In terms of philosophy I wonder about the use there in reflection of this? If we ask a philosophical question could we use some system like Tarot to reveal our own philosophical prejudices? Of course we'd need a bank of cards that would represent as many subtleties of philosophical investigation as possible!

[Eduk]

Ah I didn't mean to come across so negatively in my criticism. I apologise.

I actually think that it's possible that some technique like you describe could be used for positive reasons. For example maybe as a tool to show bias, which would be quite useful, I'd like to know my biases

Oh and I didn't mean to imply all psychics are con artists as such. People have to be given the benefit of the doubt without evidence to the contrary. I would say that is was unreasonable to genuinely believe you were a psychic but that's a different discussion.

[Burning ghost]

Someone makes a post taking about Tarot on a philosophy forum is setting myself up for negative responses

You r criticism was not negative. Expressed what I expected to hear and allowed me to fill out the point of the thread. I do think it is worth a try if you have a very personal dilemma. It can bring to attention emotional biases and show you also that you really know the rational choice, but your ego may not be so willing to bend to rationality (this is especially true in matters of the heart).

I remember this guy specifically because he was in a relationship with someone and said to me if he met his ex he imagined he'd cheat on his girlfriend, but he also wanted to meet his ex ... he already knew what the "rational" choice was he just looked to enforce it. This is the purpose the Tarot reading served. It is not to say the cards are responsible or that he is not responsible, it is to reveal your own rational truth.

The danger is if you use a method tat is more skewed toward one particular interpretation over another then I doubt the method would be much good. How to produce such a system would then pose a special problem.

So when people look at Tarot cards and say "That could mean literally anything." that, in view, is precisely why they work so well. They can be interpreted to mean whatever your hearts desire (rational or not) wishes to come to be.

I remember doing this three times over the period of a year because I really wanted a specific answer. I never go the answer I wanted, no matter what I did it came out negative. a year on after that I looked again and saw that the reading I was interpreting was simply due to my obsession over the subject. With hindsight the reading could have been very positive, but I was unable to see it because internally I resisted the fulfillment of my desires.

In regard to philosophy and general politics we tend to think we're the most balanced and open minded person on Earth compared to all these other morons ranting out there. This is pretty much how the dialectic technique came to such use. It is very rewarding to fight hard for both sides of an argument in order to not only reveal a better perspective, but to recognize the power of prejudice.

I've just had an idea ... I will do a reading and see how I can interpret it to give philosophical direction to this thread. I will use two different methods and see what you make of them.

At the very least it will be amusing

[Eduk]

I never go the answer I wanted, no matter what I did it came out negative. a year on after that I looked again and saw that the reading I was interpreting was simply due to my obsession over the subject.

This feels like the real problem with the above process to be honest. How can you tell what is desire and what is bias and what is neurosis. For example you might use the cards to see if you really want to start that new business you have dreamed of. Maybe it comes up with a yes maybe a no. But now how can you tell if either is what you a. truly want or b. perhaps more pertinently should want.

Hey, at the least it raises an interesting discussion, if only internally.

In regard to philosophy and general politics we tend to think we're the most balanced and open minded person on Earth compared to all these other morons ranting out there.

I often find myself unable to express both my humility in that there is so much that I know nothing about but am forced to act one way or another regardless and my arrogance in that other people don't seem to even know what they don't know I've had so many political conversations where I've asked for a shred of evidence one way or another where my mind is genuinely open and thus far such evidence has been extremely hard to find and yet the people I'm asking are sure of their position, doesn't make sense to me