What is mathematics?

[Woodart]

Fan of Science wrote:
Whether this makes mathematical "language" more or less complex than the use of ordinary words is most likely dependent on how one defines complexity.

I think this is a good clarification. Complexity is the issue. I think everyone agrees that math can be explained in the spoken word. So, what is complex? Complex is when ideas come fast and furious. Complex is when ideas are jammed closely together in a vocabulary that requires a training to understand the individual notations. Most people don’t study math concepts. I would say less than 10% - maybe less. Whereas, most people who speak a given language - are more familiar with the rules of the road. This fact makes understanding any given concept, in the spoken word, more digestible. There are spoken concepts which are difficult to understand. However, I cannot think of any concept that defies understanding in the spoken word. Please, anyone, show me a concept that – we – cannot understand?

In math, the same is not true. Many complex formulas require training and most important desire to comprehend. Most people lack the desire to understand. This is the difference and the heart of the complexity issue. If a person does not desire to understand math – then they don’t understand. As a result – we say or they say – it is too complex for them. This is why less than 10% are conversant in mathematical language. Math is too complex for most people.

[Fan of Science]

The same can be said for many subjects besides mathematics --- that people don't understand the concepts being referenced in the discipline. This would be true for subjects like biochemistry, electrical engineering, economics, psychology, philosophy, and pretty much any academic subject, not to mention music and other forms of art. No one can keep up with every discipline and understand its more advanced concepts, so, while I agree with you that this is certainly the case with respect to most people's limited understanding of mathematics, it is not something that is unique to mathematics by any means. In fact, even professional mathematicians do not know everything about math, as professional physicists and economists are also not experts on all aspects of their disciplines either. I think that is true for the vast majority of disciplines and professions --- people become experts in a very small field. Even in philosophy, where people are supposedly "generalists," we see more and more specialization going on.

There is just so much information out there, that all of us are rubes when it comes to the vast majority of academic disciplines. We simply can't help it.

[Surreptitious57]

The amount of knowledge a brain can store is but a very small sub set of all knowledge. Which is useless
unless it is understood but learning takes time and energy. But even so it is still better that the brain can
never really know everything. Because if it did then there would no longer be a natural sense of curiosity

[Woodart]

The same can be said for many subjects besides mathematics --- that people don't understand the concepts being referenced in the discipline. This would be true for subjects like biochemistry, electrical engineering, economics, psychology, philosophy, and pretty much any academic subject, not to mention music and other forms of art. No one can keep up with every discipline and understand its more advanced concepts, so, while I agree with you that this is certainly the case with respect to most people's limited understanding of mathematics, it is not something that is unique to mathematics by any means. In fact, even professional mathematicians do not know everything about math, as professional physicists and economists are also not experts on all aspects of their disciplines either. I think that is true for the vast majority of disciplines and professions --- people become experts in a very small field. Even in philosophy, where people are supposedly "generalists," we see more and more specialization going on.

There is just so much information out there, that all of us are rubes when it comes to the vast majority of academic disciplines. We simply can't help it.

Good point - but we are talking about math here in relation to spoken language.

Burning ghost wrote:
There is also point (7) ... I cannot grasp from what nook of your mind you conjured such a bizarre idea from? It looks like a double whammy of nonsense. Mathis a type of time? Women new about time first because of menstruation?

As philosophers we ask questions. Like what is time? Where did it come from? When did we start noticing it? As I said previously, time is a type of counting. It marks intervals between events. The sun goes up and then down, then comes up again. This is one day. I am sure everybody saw this a long time ago. Maybe this is the beginning of counting time as we know it. We will never know for sure – all is speculation. However, time gets more complex the more we study it. When did human beings understand what a year was? I don’t know – but – I bet it was a very long time after they understood what a day was.

So, my point is that counting is related to time. Women have the bleeding phenomenon every 28 days. The moon also cycles every 28 days and many women synchronize with the moon cycle. Not everyone, but a good percentage. Women talk to each other and they talk about bleeding. This talking facilitated an understanding of time in relation to their bleeding and the cycle of the moon. Just speculation on my part, but there is a method to my madness.

I would just add Burning ghost that you border on ridicule in your above comments – we try not to do that here – disagree but be respectful.

[Burning ghost]

Nope. Ridicule where ridiculous things are said is appropriate in my mind.

[Woodart]

Nope. Ridicule where ridiculous things are said is appropriate in my mind.

It will not stand on this forum.

[Burning ghost]

Greta -

What we have at present is one who reckons math is more complex, one who reckons spoken languages are more complex.

False. What we have is me saying mathematical language is not more complex than English.

[Sy Borg]

Greta -

What we have at present is one who reckons math is more complex, one who reckons spoken languages are more complex.

False. What we have is me saying mathematical language is not more complex than English.

I note that you have either changed your position or playing bait and switch.

[Burning ghost]

I have NOT stated my position I have argued against Woodart's position. Why is that so difficult to comprehend? Show one instance in this thread where I have said the English is more complex than mathematical language.

Woodart is the one lacking consistency or precision in use of words. I am generally suggesting that learning a new language is more difficult depending on how well it relates to the language you already know. In this case learning about the mathematical language may be more difficult to understand. Difficulty is not the same as complexity.

Woodart -

If you find my words a little jarring it is beacasue they are meant to be. Your statements are too vague and your thoughts and expressions clearly show this. This is a pedantic field of interest we are involved in.

The term "language" has very specific definitions for differing fields of research. If we are saying mathematics is a language then that is an epistemic description of mathematics. The "what?" of mathematics in an ontic sense is another question. My main qualm is you are not framing the question philosophically. You are making some almost mystical statements. I have time for mysticism, but not a great deal. Analogies and metaphors are very usefulfor gist of meaning, but they are also guilty of straying way of course and misrepresenting the base idea.

By saying mathematics is a more complex language than English you are stating that some languages are more complex than others. We can then ask what it means for one language to be more complex than another, if at all, and how we are defining "language". In linguistics the term "language" is very broad. If we are talking about a language we use to talk in everyday life then it may be worth classifying "language" as having to be grammatical.

We can then compare langauges such as English and French. Can we really say one is more complex than the other? We will find that the ease of expressing certain concepts from language to language will differ and that some languages will possess one word where others need several to frame the concept in need of expression. In this sense mathematics in comparision to something like English is quite alien.

I think we can say that mathematics is more precise because the terms are universal and lack any hint of uncertainty.

[Sy Borg]

I have NOT stated my position I have argued against Woodart's position. Why is that so difficult to comprehend? Show one instance in this thread where I have said the English is more complex than mathematical language.

That is how you came across due to the ferocity of your attacks on Woodart and his comments. It seemed like you had a strong opinion about it. If you are just saying that comparing the two is a fraught business, then I'd agree.

I am generally suggesting that learning a new language is more difficult depending on how well it relates to the language you already know. In this case learning about the mathematical language may be more difficult to understand. Difficulty is not the same as complexity.

Agreed, also with the thrust of the rest of your points . Difficulty depends on the receiver as much as anything else.

[Woodart]

So, what is mathematics? These are most of the ideas I put forward in this thread. Take a look and see what you can agree with or not and give specific comments and/or refutation.


1- Meaning or cognition precedes language.
2- Language can be spoken, sign and/or written and can be art.
3- Math is a language type, but comes after spoken language.
4- Philosophy developed concurrent with spoken language.
5- Philosophy asks questions and therefore is the first science.
6- Math can ask questions too and therefore a science.
7- Time is a type of math – woman understood time first because of menstruation.
8- Women were the first astronomers because of the relationship of menstruation and cycles of the moon.
9- Math is involved in every science.
10- Math via programing is actively involved in the search for artificial intelligence.
11- Math can use inductive as well as deductive logic – with computer programing for AI research.
12- philosophy defines each science by asking questions – stating hypothesis – defining methodologies
13- Cognition is a sixth sense.
14- We have more than six senses.
15- Math is a more complex language than the spoken word.
16- Math exist in the universe before humans – for example - the Fibonacci spiral and Golden Ratio
17- Humans discovered math in the world and created their own math.
18- We know about infinity through mathematics, but we do not know infinity in an experiential sense.
19- Logic developed concurrently with spoken language in order to give words coherence.
20- The logic skill we developed in the spoken word allowed mathematical language to develop.
21- The universe begged us to develop math language.
22- Math is a subset of logic skill. Logic developed first before math skill.
23- Logic evolved in spoken language first and developed simultaneously with philosophy.
24- Philosophy is a type of inquisitive logic.
25- This list is an example of spoken language, logic, philosophy, science and math.
26- I think counting was first and math evolved from it – 1, 2, 3, etc.
27- The logic of math is always conceived in the spoken word – they are always tied together.
28- Math can manipulate concepts and solve problems that the spoken work is not capable of.
29- It is possible when, and if, we reach artificial intelligence in computers – the spoken word will not be necessary for the AI. AI may not see a need for the spoken word as we know it. If this is so – it will clearly demonstration complexity beyond the spoken word.
30- If and when AI is created – if we ask it – can it use inductive logic/math and it says NO, only deductive logic – then it is not AI – yet. It must use both.
31- Spoken language and math language have different functions.
32- Mathematics is evolving and there is no end point or limit - generally.

The last idea of math to evolve continually – I am not sure about – what do you think?

[Synthesis]

So, what is mathematics? These are most of the ideas I put forward in this thread. Take a look and see what you can agree with or not and give specific comments and/or refutation.


1- Meaning or cognition precedes language.
2- Language can be spoken, sign and/or written and can be art.
3- Math is a language type, but comes after spoken language.
4- Philosophy developed concurrent with spoken language.
5- Philosophy asks questions and therefore is the first science.
6- Math can ask questions too and therefore a science.
7- Time is a type of math – woman understood time first because of menstruation.
8- Women were the first astronomers because of the relationship of menstruation and cycles of the moon.
9- Math is involved in every science.
10- Math via programing is actively involved in the search for artificial intelligence.
11- Math can use inductive as well as deductive logic – with computer programing for AI research.
12- philosophy defines each science by asking questions – stating hypothesis – defining methodologies
13- Cognition is a sixth sense.
14- We have more than six senses.
15- Math is a more complex language than the spoken word.
16- Math exist in the universe before humans – for example - the Fibonacci spiral and Golden Ratio
17- Humans discovered math in the world and created their own math.
18- We know about infinity through mathematics, but we do not know infinity in an experiential sense.
19- Logic developed concurrently with spoken language in order to give words coherence.
20- The logic skill we developed in the spoken word allowed mathematical language to develop.
21- The universe begged us to develop math language.
22- Math is a subset of logic skill. Logic developed first before math skill.
23- Logic evolved in spoken language first and developed simultaneously with philosophy.
24- Philosophy is a type of inquisitive logic.
25- This list is an example of spoken language, logic, philosophy, science and math.
26- I think counting was first and math evolved from it – 1, 2, 3, etc.
27- The logic of math is always conceived in the spoken word – they are always tied together.
28- Math can manipulate concepts and solve problems that the spoken work is not capable of.
29- It is possible when, and if, we reach artificial intelligence in computers – the spoken word will not be necessary for the AI. AI may not see a need for the spoken word as we know it. If this is so – it will clearly demonstration complexity beyond the spoken word.
30- If and when AI is created – if we ask it – can it use inductive logic/math and it says NO, only deductive logic – then it is not AI – yet. It must use both.
31- Spoken language and math language have different functions.
32- Mathematics is evolving and there is no end point or limit - generally.

The last idea of math to evolve continually – I am not sure about – what do you think?

Mathematics, being Science's handmaiden, is a fantasy, a language that attempts to describe a set of conditions in constant flux within another set of conditions in constant flux, within... .

It is easy to prove that mathematics has no basis in reality [even though it suffers serious issues at either end of its spectrum (0 and infinity)]. In another thread [1+1=2], I suggested that there is no such thing as "2" because each set of coordinates in the Universe is subject to differing forces and therefore each "thing" is rendered a unique status. Therefore, "2" of anything can not exist.

The idea of "more than 1" simply fits in with a universal linguistic/intellectual view and [perhaps] makes a little bit of sense out of Science, but not much.

Remove mathematics and see the world with better clarity.

[Fan of Science]

The absurdist claim that there is no such thing as 2 because everything is unique is flawed on numerous levels. It shows ignorance of the ability to abstract 2 which is common to 2 women, 2 tables, 2 televisions, etc. Moreover, on the subatomic level, things are often identical to each other.

If one removes mathematics, they will not see the world more clearly, but will be essentially blinded by ignorance. Math being abstract and non-empirical does not mean it has no practical value. There is no basis for such a conclusion. The concepts of zero and infinity have also proven very useful for solving real world problems, like, for example, determining the speed of a car. Just try to figure out an object's instantaneous speed without such concepts as zero and infinity when the object has variable motion? You won't be able to do it.

[Steve3007]

Synthesis:

Remove mathematics and see the world with better clarity.

So what you're saying is:

world - mathematics = clarity

Yes?

[Woodart]

Synthesis:

Remove mathematics and see the world with better clarity.

So what you're saying is:

world - mathematics = clarity

Yes?

This is an absurd idea and literally impossible to do. Math is built into the logic of our consciousness. Take for example the first sentence spoken by proto-man – “Brute hunt”. Brute says he is here now and will go hunting. It declares the present and the future. Two distinct things – the concept of two. Logic evolved with language and math is a function of it. They can never be separated. Additionally, I missed the advantage of wanting to separate from math – please enlighten us all?