If the world's economy was shut down

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Ranvier
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Re: If the world's economy was shut down

Post by Ranvier »

Alias
Alias wrote: I don't think so. The academically accomplished and intellectually gifted can greatly benefit the community by reflecting and analyzing situations, pointing out hazards and recommending options. They can also do much good by educating others, inventing new technologies, devising better means of self-actualization and formulating ethical solutions to problems.
But I see no reason why all citizens should not be able to administer the daily operations of a system of production and distribution - running the machinery. After all, that's who does - has always done - the producing and servicing of all societies; that's who does the budgeting and planning for every family, every grist mill, every farm and textile factory.
If you have a good education and public information network, everyone can keep up with current events. The main thing is: no vested interest in governance; no consolidation of cliques or elites. All citizens know exactly know exactly how government operates; mistakes and injustices can't be covered up - at the same time, you're give the present administrator your support, because it might be your turn next.
I'm suspicious of all hierarchies, especially those that take root over time, because they tend to become rigid and authoritarian.
As I mentioned, I thought about the "jury" system myself. I'm not dismissing it as a bad idea, other than that there may be a better way. In the "jury" random selection for the office, there is no means to ascertain whom we might get from the pool of citizens. There is much diversity within the population, intelligence not withstanding, which is not indicative of knowledge but the ability to learn new things. If we place people with average intelligence in the office (not necessarily bad), they would have to rely on the expertise of advisers as "puppet masters". In effect, we just left the decision making process to the "advisers" that can steer the policy in any direction of their choosing. I suggest that it would be better to place people in the position of executing the will of the people, who are best qualified to do so because that's what they've been doing all along at a different levels. You are thinking in terms of current government model but think instead from the point of view of a company with share holders. Would it be wise to elect to CEO at random from the pool of share holders?

Hierarchy is a fact of any social system because there is a chain of events that must take place in order to accomplish a goal. Someone has to steer the ship, someone has to operate the engine room, someone has to make food, and all such activities must be coordinated by someone. People may choose where we are going but a captain has to decide on the best course and the speed to get us there. Beside, those who do not like the hierarchy system, are not forced to do anything that they don't want to do. One can remain within a local group of "equals" within the Alignment but as I mentioned using the video game analogy, people need hierarchy as a feedback mechanism that informs them about their "progress" within a social standing... Ex. for Respect and Admiration. A "rank" is an empirical measure of one's accomplishment within the society. Hierarchy has a bad connotation because it implies superiority of one over another, which is difficult to accept to the maxim of "equality". However, humans are not equal (Presumably with Eastern culture, age deems respect). Some individuals are born physically beautiful, while others were not. Some have ability to learn with ease, while others struggle at school. Some posses creative skills to create art, while others have no skills at all. That is a fact of life. There is no logic in "artificially" convincing people that they are equal, other than that we should all have equal rights, which is also far from the truth in practice in any modern society.
My take on commune is simply that: a group of people with a common interest in survival: a community pooling its resources and efforts; sharing its benefits and safety.
The "ism" part is completely unnecessary to the concept. The historical misapplications, lies, distortions and abuses do not result from the concept itself, any more than the abuses and corruptions of democratic process prove that democracy is a bad idea. But we needn't bother with that anyway, since I never advocated communism in the first place.
That is beautiful in principle but perhaps only possible in small groups. This is definitely possible in a family setting or a small tribal society. However, once we grow to the point of a large city, where most people are strangers, common interests diverge significantly. That is another fact of human life and society. The "commune" only works in such small setting but not on the large scale, hence the "ism" was attempted without success. This is why I came up with my model to break up a large society into much smaller, more cohesive groups that are bound by a common goal of an Alignment. This in turn reinforces the human need for kinship and sense of belonging. In a modern society, an individual becomes "invisible" (not exactly) to the society. This is why people will pass by a homeless person without a second thought. Do an experiment and start crying in a public place and see how many people will come up to ask "what's wrong?"... Well, maybe in Canada they will :)
I do, however, wish that money could be removed the administration of the common weal, as well as its governance and law-making.
Perhaps in the distant future, for now that is too great of a change to accomplish. This is like a Star Trek idea of a 27th century but no in the 21st.
Ranvier
How many times do I have to build a house? Once it’s there, it’s done.
Alias
Have you ever owned a house more than ten years old? It needs maintenance all the time and repairs with increasing frequency. Especially if there are weather events - which there often are and more often will be. Have you ever seen the inside of a hospital or airplane factory? It's never "done".
Food need regrowing, re-processing every time it's eaten; babies need their nappies changed several times a day; only a year later, another batch of students will have to be taught the very same geometry; livestock needs its stables cleaned every day; people keep getting new illnesses and breaking new bones; the same bus - with occasional new tires and lube job - needs driving down the same - periodically resurfaced - street every hour.
You don't need fewer people working all day; you need people working fewer hours.
Everyone needs a chance to contribute something useful and valued. Otherwise, how are they to earn all that Respect and Admiration?
Some people are motivated by Admiration (Scientists, Teachers, or Physicians), others are motivated by Respect (Police, Military, or Criminals), and others still are motivated by Power or Freedom. Everyone should have ease in opportunity to leave their life in what motivates them without subjugation to will of someone else. By telling people that EVERYONE must work and how much, you are forcing people to adhere to certain rules. Well, artist may take an issue with that rule.

The dividend proceeds are from the private commercial sector that is "taxed" for using the land and the natural resources to produce the product. In other words, the factories, commercial buildings that stand on public land, and the resources from the land (oil, gold, iron) are taxed by the government. The revenue from that taxation is distributed to the share holders (the people). This is a sufficient amount for citizens to purchase the basic necessities such a clothing, cell phone, or a PC. The government (the people) are the owner of the land and the resources, where the "chair" for each Alignment within the public sector is the executive "branch" of the will of the people. The public sector (with suggested two currency system) must have some kind of exchange rate with the private sector. People can choose between allocating their time for the public sector or to "work" for the private sector. Those who devote their time for the Alignment will earn the public "monetary" and "moral" currency, where only the monetary currency has the exchange rate with the private sector and the moral currency can only be used to advance within the "rank" of Alignment.

As for your objections; Farmers want to farm, that's what they do. That's what they know and love to do. Same is true for Teachers, Physicians, or Engineers. I actually envision that people would compete for something to do within the Alignment. Again, the Idea that everyone must work is from the imprint in our minds that we must work, only to generate profit and power for those who crave it. Those who crave for such things can work for the private sector but those who just want to do something useful with their time can learn or do something productive within their skill set for the Alignment. Best of both worlds.
Alias
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Re: If the world's economy was shut down

Post by Alias »

Ranvier wrote: As I mentioned, I thought about the "jury" system myself. I'm not dismissing it as a bad idea, other than that there may be a better way.
I have a pretty good election scheme, too. It's just one option.
... there is no means to ascertain whom we might get from the pool of citizens.
Yes, there is. We get citizens who did not set out in life to rule over anybody. We get people who are not career politicians, have not made any prior deals, and do not owe their position to patrons. We get competent people who live in the productive world, bring recent practical experience in that world into the office, and are directly affected next year by the administrative decisions they make this year. If your fellow citizens can be trusted with your life or death, they can be trusted with your warehousing of winter carrots and routing of your mag-lev trains.
If we place people with average intelligence in the office (not necessarily bad), they would have to rely on the expertise of advisers as "puppet masters".
Why do you use these emotionally loaded phrases?
The elected officials we have now don't come into their seats with prior knowledge of all the departments of government; even the ones who will take appointments to head a committee or department or agency have no expertise, coming in. All representatives rely on the civil service, advisors and technical experts.
In effect, we just left the decision making process to the "advisers" that can steer the policy in any direction of their choosing.
Whereas all shareholders are experts and don't need any technical advice? Honestly, i don't see the difference.
I suggest that it would be better to place people in the position of executing the will of the people, who are best qualified to do so
How do you get qualified to carry out the will of the people, except by being one of the people?
You are thinking in terms of current government model but think instead from the point of view of a company with share holders. Would it be wise to elect to CEO at random from the pool of share holders?
Absolutely! Not just a chief exectuive, but a whole board of directors. A steering committee, if you will; half of it experienced, half with fresh POV.
Anyway, I think it's time to retire the corporate model, or I'll start dredging up their history of stock crashes, bubbles, Ponzi schemes, mass layoffs and executive bonuses, contract breaches, profit hiding, tax evasion, bankruptcies, offshoring and bailouts.
Hierarchy is a fact of any social system because there is a chain of events that must take place in order to accomplish a goal. Someone has to steer the ship, someone has to operate the engine room, someone has to make food, and all such activities must be coordinated by someone.
Really? Could have sworn I said very similar. I thought you'd wait for guys on the beach to get around to things eventually.
People may choose where we are going but a captain has to decide on the best course and the speed to get us there.
Now you're tempting me to name famous ships. Less of the analogies, please.
How is this different from an administration of citizens making policy and a civil service carrying it out?
Of course planning and co-ordination must take place - I've said so more than once. It is for that you need a group of representatives, advised by career experts.
I only suggested a way to make it easier to prevent mistakes compounding and power consolidating. To my mind, neither the business nor the naval model of command-structure is best suited to do that. Nor was hereditary monarchy or theocracy. Democracy comes close, but is hard to keep clean - impossible if money and power accumulate in a central location, behind closed doors or in too few hands.
people need hierarchy as a feedback mechanism that informs them about their "progress" within a social standing... Ex. for Respect and Admiration. A "rank" is an empirical measure of one's accomplishment within the society.
No, they don't. There are far more accurate ways of measuring success in each separate endeavour - of which video games are arguably the least significant.
Hierarchy has a bad connotation because it implies superiority of one over another,
It doesn't imply that - it means that. Especially if you add chains of command.
However, humans are not equal
They're not the same in abilities, talents or appearance. That has no bearing on their political and legal equality, which is all we're concerned with here.
That [commune] is beautiful in principle but perhaps only possible in small groups. This is definitely possible in a family setting or a small tribal society.
The best - most durable, anyway - example in non-kinship groups would be a clerical order. It's not by chance monasteries and convents are nominally based on the family model. This allows for greater wisdom and experience to carry proportionately more weight in decision-making, discipline and responsibility, but that does not entitle the leaders to profligate use of resources or self-indulgence.
Think of all the happiest groups of people you've ever seen. How were the groups constituted? What was the occasion of their jubilation?
I'm inclined to think of the Mars Rover team when the first pictures came in, and my 10-year-old's soccer team when they won second place in their league, and the mountain rescue team that got three stupid snowmobilers out from under an avalanche a couple of winters ago. People get a huge amount of satisfaction out of shared achievement.
However, once we grow to the point of a large city, where most people are strangers, common interests diverge significantly.
There is no reason a large city can't have stable local communities where people do know one another, and families are interconnected by marriage, personal friendships, common effort and interest: a local school, hydroponic gardens, generator and repair crews, park, street fairs, etc. Beyond that, we have exchange of skills and goods, plus law-enforcement, transportation and all the other facilities of a civilized society.
All without damaging disparities in wealth and power.
Do an experiment and start crying in a public place and see how many people will come up to ask "what's wrong?"... Well, maybe in Canada they will :)
We do have cities. People shoot one another in those cities. We also have millionnaires and homeless people and some very badly managed public agencies, as well as private businesses, even though we have career politicians and CEO's.
None of that detracts from the fact that the charitable impulse, the sympathetic and helping impulse, exists in all societies everywhere. It just works a lot better in societies where people haven't been egged on to distrust and resent one another, by people who want to exploit their conflicts.
[money could be removed the public domain]
Perhaps in the distant future, for now that is too great of a change to accomplish. This is like a Star Trek idea of a 27th century but no in the 21st.
No, the idea was to confine money, profit, competition, bosses and employees, etc. to the private sector.
I do not think your pipe-dream is any more achievable in the near future.
Some people are motivated by Admiration (Scientists, Teachers, or Physicians), others are motivated by Respect (Police, Military, or Criminals), and others still are motivated by Power or Freedom.
You're not describing human psychology; you're listing categories of label. It's not informative.
By telling people that EVERYONE must work and how much,
No, I'm not. I'm offering them a contract. Everyone remains a free agent.
you are forcing people to adhere to certain rules
Unless you walk into the desert or sail off on the ocean, you're going to be in a society with rules. The question is not whether there are rules, but how those rules are made and enforced, how much say you get in making them, how well you fare under the auspices of a co-operative system.
Well, artist may take an issue with that rule.
No, they don't. Artists don't want to starve or freeze or get mugged, any more than regular people do. They want to sleep in beds, hang out in cafes, meet convivial friends,attend amusements, and realize their vision in comfortable work-spaces. Most artists have lived normal, law-abiding lives. Most artists have taken commissions and courted patrons in order to maintain a reasonable standard of living; many have worked at far worse jobs that decorating public buildings or designing parks.
The dividend proceeds are from the private commercial sector that is "taxed" for using the land and the natural resources to produce the product. In other words, the factories, commercial buildings that stand on public land, and the resources from the land (oil, gold, iron) are taxed by the government. The revenue from that taxation is distributed to the share holders (the people). This is a sufficient amount for citizens to purchase the basic necessities such a clothing, cell phone, or a PC. The government (the people) are the owner of the land and the resources, where the "chair" for each Alignment within the public sector is the executive "branch" of the will of the people. The public sector (with suggested two currency system) must have some kind of exchange rate with the private sector. People can choose between allocating their time for the public sector or to "work" for the private sector. Those who devote their time for the Alignment will earn the public "monetary" and "moral" currency, where only the monetary currency has the exchange rate with the private sector and the moral currency can only be used to advance within the "rank" of Alignment.
Except for the structure of administration, this is not very different from a public sector where goods and services are exchanged by a central broker without recourse to money, and a private sector that can make its own currency if it wants to.
Farmers want to farm, that's what they do. That's what they know and love to do. Same is true for Teachers, Physicians, or Engineers.
Obviously. In Zatamon's system, they kick in a certain amount of their product to the common pool - just like paying taxes - and get to do whatever they like with the surplus - or can choose not to produce a surplus. My objection wasn't that they don't get it done, but that there needs to be something more structured than "eventually" to get the right amount of things to where they're needed at the time they're needed.
the Idea that everyone must work is from the imprint in our minds that we must work,
Please stop telling me about the contents of my mind!
Those who crave for such things can work for the private sector but those who just want to do something useful with their time can learn or do something productive within their skill set for the Alignment. Best of both worlds.
Did you miss this [central, essential] part of the New Social contract?
The only thing really different is that you believe the polity can carry voluntary freeloaders. It can, up to a point - indeed, a society can more easily support a thousand welfare frauds than one banker with poor judgment - but pockets of such persons could be disruptive to the communities; they would generate contempt and pity among the productive people, which would result in low self-esteem, poor mental and social health, and preventable 'acting-out'. I very much doubt any able person would choose a free ride - certainly, even small children of three or four years crave to be useful and contribute where they're allowed to.
The whole point of a short work-day in the public sector is to give everyone - or, since you're so partial to capitals, EVERYONE - opportunities to participate, contribute, deploy their skills, earn status, feel connected and invested, as well as benefit.
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Ranvier
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Re: If the world's economy was shut down

Post by Ranvier »

Alias

Perhaps I'm wrong but I'm perceiving a hostility in your replies. If I offended you in any way, I apologize. I'm not sure what are your expectations from me, other than affirmation of your New Social Contract. It seems that you are growing inpatient and frustrated with my replies, not that I'm insinuating the contents of your mind. I'm beginning to feel as if I have to choose my words carefully, which is not a good way to build a coalition around your proposal. Perhaps it would be a good time to invite others to offer new perspective on each platform. I will potentially anger you with what I'm about to say but co-ups and commune(ism) systems were attempted before (are in some places), and in one of the posts someone else had posted... paraphrasing, "that one must must be cautious not to regress to tyranny" even if only for 2-3 hours a day. I may be very well misguided as well, in my conviction that not everyone needs to "work", which logically seems to be the case, since at various places 10-30% of population works for the government anyway with 5%-17% unemployment rate. Many of such government jobs were "created" specifically to lower that unemployment rate just to push papers around, to "find" minimum wage jobs to college graduates cleaning subway platforms or picking garbage from the streets. Not very efficient or morale boosting. That is the problem, in my view, with the centralized commune system that attempts to employ everyone just to fulfill the Social Contract, or otherwise send them to the "wolves" of the private sector. Not very encouraging.

We already have the power to demand from our respective governments, for instance, to make the internet free (minimum investment). As it should be, even from the commercial point of view, since only 7.2% is in e-commerce.
http://www.businessinsider.com/e-commer ... try-2016-5

I would for instance propose that Pluracracy could be accomplished with a minimum effort as a virtual pilot program. All that is needed is a group of coders to start a company, where any new member is an automatic share holder of that company. Whatever revenue is made is equally distributed to all members each quarter as a virtual currency that can be cashed in for legal tender or reinvested into the company for specific projects. The revenue is generated by the advertising at first, simply by logging into the company social website. The greater the number of members, the greater the traffic on the website that generates more proceeds from advertisers. Once a sufficient amount of income is generated, the company can invest in production of movies, computer games, or building houses, only available to the members of the company. The investment choices would depend on the skill sets of the members of the company. Eventually people could "work" from home, doing whatever they enjoy doing... such as post their thoughts in a forum :)

Everyone can allocate as much time as one wishes, keeping in mind that anything they do increases the traffic on the company's website, that in turn increases the value of their "stock share". Eventually, the company would grow in size to the point of becoming a self sufficient entity, capable of building a real community of people by establishing a small city. From there, the full effect of Pluracracy can be established in the Alignment system, including the Economic Alignment that could manage the "fusion" of the public sector with the private sector, which would remain separate in interests. There are of course many more details that would have to be discussed at each stage of the development but this is a valid concept with a road map of implementation peacefully without a revolution.

How would you implement the "New Social Contract" model?
Alias
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Re: If the world's economy was shut down

Post by Alias »

Ranvier wrote:Alias

Perhaps I'm wrong but I'm perceiving a hostility in your replies.
It's not hostility; it's frustration. I thought I was very clear. I thought Zatamon was fairly clear.
'm not sure what are your expectations from me,
None whatever. I thought your idea was similar to my friend's, that's all.
other than affirmation of your New Social Contract.[/quoute]
Not mine. i have much bigger ideas.
It seems that you are growing inpatient and frustrated with my replies, not that I'm insinuating the contents of your mind.
Keep telling what they've been impinted with, they'll get that impression, yeah.
I'm beginning to feel as if I have to choose my words carefully, which is not a good way to build a coalition around your proposal.
Choosing words to mean what you want to say is always important in communicating ideas.
Perhaps it would be a good time to invite others to offer new perspective on each platform.
Excellent suggestion!
I would for instance propose that Pluracracy could be accomplished with a minimum effort as a virtual pilot program.
Go!
How would you implement the "New Social Contract" model?
I wouldn't. I don't believe it's possible. I thought we were just playing "what if" .

-- Updated September 2nd, 2017, 12:42 am to add the following --

misspelled a close quote. Sorry.

-- Updated September 2nd, 2017, 12:58 am to add the following --

Personally, I happen to dislike the corporate model of anything. It's partly prejudice, but there is reasoning behind it as well.
Anthropology, psychology and political theory are interconnected - yes.
I wonder whether you understand enough about all of those disciplines to formulate a comprehensive strategy for reorganizing large post-industrial societies.
If you do, I wish you luck in the attempt.
Those who can induce you to believe absurdities can induce you to commit atrocities. - Voltaire
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