Heidegger and "Da-sein"

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Burning ghost
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Heidegger and "Da-sein"

Post by Burning ghost »

I am not sure of anyone else's opinion about this, but I find Heidegger purposefully obtuse in Being and Time. Often I read pages and pages only to find he could have merely summed it all up in a couple of paragraphs.

To understand what is meant by "da-sein" we should look at direct translations into English before trying to distinguish this term as something different. In English this basically means "being there", "presence", or more usually, "existence".

In Being and Time Heidegger is concerned from the outset with the concept of "being".

The first definition of "dasein" by Heidegger is presented and I will try and do it justice by typing out a large segment that contains a little of the context, if not the previous few paragraphs that look at the "question" in general (the "question" is expressed well enough in the following quote though - although I feel it would've been mor ehelpful to frame his explanation by using the term "proposition" rather than "presupposed" ... see full text for that p.5-6. Although the reason for this avoidance becomes clearer later on in his reconstruction):
... Everything we talk about, mean, and are related to is in being in one way or another. What and how we ourselves are is also in being. Being is found in thatness and whatness, reality, the objective presence of things [Vorhandenheit], subsistence, validity, existence, and in the "there is" [es gibt]. In which being is the meaning of being to be found; from which being is the disclosure of being to get its start? Is the starting point arbitrary, or does a certain being have priority in the elaboration of the question of being? Which is the exemplary being and in what sense does it have priority?

If the question of being is to be explicitly formulated and brought to complete clarity concerning itself, then the elaboration of this question requires, in accord with what has been elucidated up to now, explication of the ways of regarding being and of understanding and conceptually grasping its meaning, preparation of the possibility of the right choice of the exemplary being, and elaboration of the genuine mode of access to this being. Regarding, understanding and grasping, choosing, and gaining access to, are constitutive attitudes of inquiry and are thus themselves modes of being of a particular being, of the being we inquirers ourselves in each case are. Thus to work out the question of being means to make a being - one who questions - transparent in its being. Asking this question, as a mode of being of a being, is itself essentially determined by what is asked about in it - being. This being which we ourselves in each case are and which includes inquiry among possibilities of its being we formulate terminologically as Da-sein. The explicit and lucid formulation of the question of the meaning of being requires a prior suitable explication of a being (Da-sein) with regard to its being.
He goes on to explain why it is not circular reasoning and examines the difference between "presupposing" and "propositions". This does little more than reveal the age old problem of the "question" philosophy still has no way of dealing with. To skip to half-way through the next paragraph Heidegger says:
... "Presupposing" being has the character of taking a preliminary look at being in such a way that on the basis of this look beings are already given are tentatively articulated in their being. This guiding look at being grows out of the average understanding of being in which we are always already involved and which ultimately belongs to the essential constitution of Da-sein itself. Such "presupposing" has nothing to do with positing a principle from which a series of propositions is deduced. A "circle of reasoning" cannot possibly lie in the formulation of the question of the meaning of being, because in answering this question it is not a matter of grounding by deduction but rather laying bare and exhibiting the ground.
So what is "Da-sein"? How is it differing from the term "self"?

I actually find the above quotes easy enough to grasp, but I still find them needlessly obtuse. Later on Heidegger appears to merely create his own little language game, which may be useful to some. My issue is that it is a "language game", and that he should've said the "game" is "dasein" perhaps?

The main issue for me is Heidegger's failure to distinguish between the concept of "self" and "dasein". To me it looks a lot like a looking at oneself "as if" oneself is "other". In this way I do very much find Heidegger's work here useful in exploring this area for the numerous traps laid before us in attempting to view "this" or "that" as purely "subjective" or purely "objective", both being essentially the same thing wrap around itself - so to speak! So I understand the difficulty presented by language in explicating an all too (very much TOO TOO) obvious "being".

-- Updated July 28th, 2017, 1:41 am to add the following --

A further, and perhaps more clear, exposition of Da-sein is shown here (p.13-14):
... Only when philosophical research and inquiry themselves are grasped in an existentiall way -as a possibility of being of each existing Da-sein - does it become possible at all to disclose the existentiality of existence and therewith to get hold of a sufficient grounded set of ontological problems. But with this the ontic priority of the question of being has also become clear.
I would again argue strongly that this is needlessly obtuse. What the reader should understand here is Heidegger is basically asking what it is we found questions on and from "where" these founding arise. It is a bold attempt to create a concept parallel to language for lingual usage (an attempt that has to fail necessarily).

To put this into simpler terms, he is talking about PRIORITY in the last line. He is removing the idea of "proposition" and talking about the "prior" to the "proposition" - the "proposition" being understood by Heidegger as being presented after-the-matter-of-factly, a deduction revealed as being nothing other than inference, or induction!

Instead he implants the rehashed concept of "presupposed".

To step away from this confusing rhetoric we can simply regard ourselves and our understanding of self. I am. I am neither "here" nor "there", the "hereness" and "thereness" is, for me, a way of registering The World (My World "seen" as I "see" not as it "sees" me). The World has "being" only in regard to my understanding of my own being which remains both paradoxically hidden and exposed ... what Heidegger is really attempting to frame here is this concept of the "non-whatness" of the equally "hidden"/"exposed" item and call it Da-sein (in common English "being-there" or "existence").

HE seems to mistaken the "horizon" as "being" over-there in the way he expresses his definition of "dasein". Later in Being and Time, I cannot remember exactly, I do think he ignores this entirely and acts as if the concept of dasein doesn't suffer when he talks about "horizons" (this could be due to my personal take on "horizon" though! Hopefully you'll help reveal this if you're more familiar with Heidegger than I am).
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Re: Heidegger and "Da-sein"

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Both Heidegger and Jung’s writings are influenced by Kantian and by the post-Kantian philosophies. In the case of Jung, it is influenced also by Hegel. As such, it is the collective consciousness and Da’sein acting upon and configuring the world as it appears to us but also they are realities like time and space in themselves different from what they appear to us. So, they are similar concepts in the starting point. However, Da’sein does not contemplate archetypes. In the case of Heidegger it is an evolving reality or an evolving view of reality. Whatever.
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Re: Heidegger and "Da-sein"

Post by Burning ghost »

Hereandnow -

I was hoping for some kind of comment from you?

What is your take on Dasein? Give quotations from Being and Time to back them up please.
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Re: Heidegger and "Da-sein"

Post by Spectrum »

I have not done a refresher on my knowledge re Heidegger's view, so I don;t have a good grasp of Heidegger's philosophy in details at present.

However in general, one need to take note of Heidegger's "The Turn" (die Kehre) in regards to Heidegger's shift in his views on the concept of Da-sein before and after the turn.

In general, I believe Heidegger is not too sure of his own views, thus the change and the groping around because he was not leveraged on a strong fundamentals.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
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Re: Heidegger and "Da-sein"

Post by Burning ghost »

Hello? Any chance of addressing the question?
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Re: Heidegger and "Da-sein"

Post by Tamminen »

I think if we want to know Heidegger's definition of Dasein we should read Being and Time a couple of times, and we still have no definition, only a better understanding of what he meant by it. On the other hand, Dasein is what each of us is, and that is an open question, because that is what we are asking about all the time. We "define" Dasein all the time by being it. To compare with another existentialist: Sartre says about the for-itself that it is not what it is (its past) and it is what it is not (its future). He says that man is "a hole in the universe".
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Re: Heidegger and "Da-sein"

Post by Burning ghost »

How about this ... He didn't know what he meant, but it sounded enough like something that people sliced their own tenuous meanings into it?
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Re: Heidegger and "Da-sein"

Post by Sy Borg »

It looks like HAN is doing other things ATM - the subject matter certainly appears to be in his sweet spot.

Personally, I found the above quotes to be impenetrable garble, as tends to be any text attempting to explain these things, including my own weak attempts (that I don't publish online because they are impenetrable garble). Having said that, I didn't see in the above an attempt to explain Dai-sein, rather framing its investigation.

I suspect that some things are inherently not explainable due to the inside-out nature of being.
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Re: Heidegger and "Da-sein"

Post by Dachshund »

Burning ghost wrote: February 6th, 2018, 1:05 pm How about this ... He didn't know what he meant, but it sounded enough like something that people sliced their own tenuous meanings into it?
Dasein referred exclusively to humans' mode of being ( or "existence"), and how in his view it was always situated (da -sein) i.e. "out there" in the world. What distinguished human existence, that is, is that it was for Heidegger a being -in-the-word (i.e. the world"out there").

To get a better intuitive feel for what Heidegger intended his concept of"Dasein"to mean, try simply substituting your own christian name for the term whenever and wherever it appears in the text of "Being and Time" as you read through it. I find that helps a bit ( and making this substitution is, BTW , perfectly "legit").

You are not the only one who finds Heidegger's prose style in "Being and time" obtuse and difficult to process, even experienced professional philosophers struggle with the extrordinary density of his writing in this text.

As for tying himself up in literary knots and speaking what was ultimately pure and utter nonsense , Heidegger's various ruminations on the nature of "nothing" ( in the context of his famous metaphysical question "Why is it there something rather than nothing"?) probably take the cake.Check it out for yourself !

Its worth bearing in mind, as well, that in "Being and Time" Heidegger was on a mission - a quest - dedicated to successfully pinning down the true nature of human being/existence, but the unanimous verdict is that he failed spectacularly in his efforts achieve his goal,( which is hardly surprising, I guess, given the formidable task he had set for himself).

Reagards

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Re: Heidegger and "Da-sein"

Post by Fooloso4 »

Burning ghost:
I find Heidegger purposefully obtuse in Being and Time.
Some defend him on the grounds that he is attempting to say something our language had not developed to address.
To understand what is meant by "da-sein" we should look at direct translations into English before trying to distinguish this term as something different. In English this basically means "being there", "presence", or more usually, "existence".
Dasein denotes the being to which and through which Being is disclosed. None of the terms you suggest connote this in the way they are normally used. He reserves the term existence for Dasein.
That kind of Being toward which Dasein can comport itself in one way or another, and always does comport itself somehow, we call existence [Existenz]. (12)
You quoted:
... Only when philosophical research and inquiry themselves are grasped in an existentiall way -as a possibility of being of each existing Da-sein - does it become possible at all to disclose the existentiality of existence and therewith to get hold of a sufficient grounded set of ontological problems. But with this the ontic priority of the question of being has also become clear.
So, the question of Being is to be addressed via the state of Being of Dasein, one of whose possibilities is to take up the question of Being. He gives priority to the ontic because it is not a theoretical question, that is to say, an ontological question.He begins ontically with what man has done and said. Philosophy is a the possibility of Dasein, but man is not the rational being, as Aristotle said. This is a mistake that has informed much of the history of philosophy.

Rather than the question of what is man, Heidegger points to man’s possibilities. . Man’s possibilities are open.
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Re: Heidegger and "Da-sein"

Post by Burning ghost »

Fool -
Dasein denotes the being to which and through which Being is disclosed.
This was essentially my take on it too, but it suffers from trying to frame a concept that does not fit into common language. I've noticed this as a problem of epistemology and ontology; because being is known, and those terms are just common demarcations.

For me he is saying dasein is a being which has no being, but is rather "the questioning of being." What we are is a kind of being that takes up the "process" of questioning. The oldest question in Greek philosophy, the endless problem is the "What?" question - that goes back over 2000 years.

I cannot for the life of me figure out WHY Heidegger didn't do a better job of explicating what he was talking about.

Please note what I have quoted is the very first instance of a definition. If what we're saying is clearer than what he said, why couldn't he write more clearly? (I have my own theory as to why, but I won't go into that here.)

Anyway, not to pick over your translation any more than mine (we both cannot escape suffering because the concept is insubstantial); the bits marked in bold tell us more about the problem, and to his credit he tries to circumnavigate them throughout the text - but fails imo.

We all know "being" is merely a word to represent something we are able to refer to if not weigh and measure well enough at present. The "mere words" are not, as Wittgenstein would say, stand alone items. We're talking about a lexicon. We have "the" to deal with and then "through"; and those are just to start with. This is the obtuse way Heidegger approaches the whole matter.
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Re: Heidegger and "Da-sein"

Post by Dachshund »

Greta wrote: February 6th, 2018, 6:48 pm It looks like HAN is doing other things ATM - the subject matter certainly appears to be in his sweet spot.

Greta,

Personally, I found the above quotes to be impenetrable garble, as tends to be any text attempting to explain these things, including my own weak attempts (that I don't publish online because they are impenetrable garble). Having said that, I didn't see in the above an attempt to explain Dai-sein, rather framing its investigation.

I suspect that some things are inherently not explainable due to the inside-out nature of being.

I am not sure exactly what you mean by "the inside-out" nature of (human) being? ( I do, however have intimation of what you are alluding to).

But does this if it is true, or anything else, render any attempt we might make to explicate the fundamental nature of , say, human being (as it is inself) in part or in full totally futile?

The question of the nature of human being or ( or "existence"/"extistenz" )as Heidegger also called it is, I suspect not completely intractable. This, of course, was obviously Heidegger's view as well, if it were not, then he would never have put pen to paper to begin such a grand quest as "Being and Time" in the first place (?)

Very briefly. In my opinion, there are some non-trivial things that we can know about the true fundamental nature of Da-sein's being ( and the being of certain other non-human things as well. One of them is that human being ( being as such) is always and everywhere intimately bound up with hierarchy. That is, human being is fundamentally bound up with an hierarchical ordering of vertical gradations (rankings) of quality ( e.g. :the stronger and more vital above and dominating/prevailing over the weaker and more enervated: the more rational ranked above and dominating /mastering the less rational, the life-affirming over andabove the moribund or nihilistic, and so on.

You will likely reject this thesis because the term "patriarchy", for instance, is pretty much synonymous in principle with the word hierarchy as I am using it, and you view the patriarchy to be a factitious, man-manufactured social construct ( and one you happen to find objectionable/detestable) as opposed to its being a real phenomenon in the real, natural world?

I am writing a new OP in which I will more fully and clearly explain the relationship between being and hierarchy as I see it in the context of the current decline of our Western civilization. So if you are interested in these kind of issues you might like to read what I have to say?


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Re: Heidegger and "Da-sein"

Post by Sy Borg »

Dachshund wrote: February 7th, 2018, 10:31 am
Greta wrote: February 6th, 2018, 6:48 pm It looks like HAN is doing other things ATM - the subject matter certainly appears to be in his sweet spot.

Greta,

Personally, I found the above quotes to be impenetrable garble, as tends to be any text attempting to explain these things, including my own weak attempts (that I don't publish online because they are impenetrable garble). Having said that, I didn't see in the above an attempt to explain Dai-sein, rather framing its investigation.

I suspect that some things are inherently not explainable due to the inside-out nature of being.
I am not sure exactly what you mean by "the inside-out" nature of (human) being? ( I do, however have intimation of what you are alluding to).

But does this if it is true, or anything else, render any attempt we might make to explicate the fundamental nature of , say, human being (as it is inself) in part or in full totally futile?

The question of the nature of human being or ( or "existence"/"extistenz" )as Heidegger also called it is, I suspect not completely intractable. This, of course, was obviously Heidegger's view as well, if it were not, then he would never have put pen to paper to begin such a grand quest as "Being and Time" in the first place (?)

Very briefly. In my opinion, there are some non-trivial things that we can know about the true fundamental nature of Da-sein's being ( and the being of certain other non-human things as well. One of them is that human being ( being as such) is always and everywhere intimately bound up with hierarchy. That is, human being is fundamentally bound up with an hierarchical ordering of vertical gradations (rankings) of quality ( e.g. :the stronger and more vital above and dominating/prevailing over the weaker and more enervated: the more rational ranked above and dominating /mastering the less rational, the life-affirming over andabove the moribund or nihilistic, and so on.

You will likely reject this thesis because the term "patriarchy" ...
Just putting the patriarchy malarkey aside first, You are not superior to me by virtue of your tiny wrinkly protuberance. Unlike other social animals, human destiny is not only determined by physical properties such as gender or race - to which you apply the mythology of the orthodox right, positing these naive and dated hierarchies of gender and race. Rather, as humans, our individual qualities can, and often do, determine our place in civilised society.

More interesting are the limitations to our knowledge because we are on the inside looking out rather than outside looking in. There is a great deal we can learn but it must always necessarily be relative information because we cannot step outside of the "arena" to watch the games but are necessarily embroiled in them.
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Re: Heidegger and "Da-sein"

Post by Dachshund »

A 10 - inch "rod of steel" is not a "tiny wrinkly protuberance".

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Re: Heidegger and "Da-sein"

Post by Fooloso4 »

BG:
For me he is saying dasein is a being which has no being, but is rather "the questioning of being."
I don’t think that this is correct. Asking the question of Being is one of the possibilities of Dasein’s being. He says that authentic existence is to “become what you are”:
What one originally and authentically already is: that which essentially unfolds as having been.
BG:
Please note what I have quoted is the very first instance of a definition. If what we're saying is clearer than what he said, why couldn't he write more clearly? (I have my own theory as to why, but I won't go into that here.)
I spent a good deal of time with the text the last few days trying to work out what he is saying. Much of it I deleted in order to present something clearly. There is much more going on.
We all know "being" is merely a word to represent something we are able to refer to if not weigh and measure well enough at present.
The idea that there is something rather than nothing compelled Heidegger. Being and Time, from the perspective of time is about what comes to be, how it comes to be, and what remains occluded by what comes to be. He moves back through history as a matter of retrieval and opening. He says that it is now time to retrieve earlier possibilities that with the ascendency of Plato and Aristotle, Descartes and Spinoza, and Kant and Hegel, were forgotten. Most importantly, alethea.
This is the obtuse way Heidegger approaches the whole matter.
His later works were much leaner and far less academic, although they still required careful interpretation. I think this was intentional. Interpretation was an important philosophical practice for Heidegger.

Consistent with his theme of the coming of Being and alethea he was often oracular.
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