Which is Real, the relative or The Absolute?

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Synthesis
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Which is Real, the relative or The Absolute?

Post by Synthesis »

Of course, the answer is neither or none, but let's amuse ourselves by believing that the human mind is capable of actual understanding. This understanding [like all things knowable] can be split into the following duality, the relative and The Absolute; the relative meaning that which is constantly changing and knowable, and The Absolute, that which is unknowable and unchanging [exists outside of our ability to intellectualize].

God is a great example of, The Absolute [although you could substitute anything else], because people are well-versed in the arguments concerning such a supreme [fill in the blank]. The particulars of God are unknowable to the human intellect [for our example] and unchanging. OTOH, technology is a wonderful example of the relative, because it appears to be understandable and it's nature is widely believed to be ever changing.

People believe that they can understand the nature of technology but when you begin to think about it, what does it actually mean? And if we can't even define it, how can one understand it? Well, all things work this way, it's just that we assume we know because most accept standard definitions and explanations for pretty much everything, but when you begin to pick them apart, the reality of the situation becomes apparent, and that is that we have no clue.

The Absolute is simply the acknowledgement of a particularly vexing example in the relative, but the same would apply regardless. IOW, The Absolute is given life when the relative is found to be inadequate, nothing more. So I would contend that The Absolute is more Real only because we are able to give up the notion that we can understand it, but not actually Real because our minds have given it birth, life [and eventually, death].

What is actually Real can not exist, has no birth, no life, nor death.
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Burning ghost
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Re: Which is Real, the relative or The Absolute?

Post by Burning ghost »

Bananas are real. I know because I eat them.
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Synthesis
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Re: Which is Real, the relative or The Absolute?

Post by Synthesis »

Burning ghost wrote:Bananas are real. I know because I eat them.
This is an exercise in discovering the nature of thinking. You may say that the banana is real, but I would suggest that you can not know understand its nature. In that case, what makes it real?

It is similar to the following story...

A man is lost out in the middle of the desert, nearly dehydrated past the point of return. It is the middle of the night and the man finally stumbles and falls. He notices that he has landed next to a fluid filled vessel. With his last remaining strength, the man holds the vessel up to his parched lips and savors the life saving liquid. Feeling greatly relieved that he will survive, he falls into a deep, sound sleep.

Upon opening his eyes the next morning and feeling exuberant with renewed energy, he turns to his side and notices that he vessel he was drinking out of was a crushed animal skull and the liquid was its decaying brain. Immediately, the man became violently ill and vomited what little he had left in his GI tract. He was dead by evening.

The bottom-line is that what we think has little to do with reality [on any level].
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Burning ghost
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Re: Which is Real, the relative or The Absolute?

Post by Burning ghost »

Okay nothing is real. Happy now? Time to erase the word from the English language!
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Re: Which is Real, the relative or The Absolute?

Post by -1- »

Synthesis wrote:
Burning ghost wrote:Bananas are real. I know because I eat them.
This is an exercise in discovering the nature of thinking. You may say that the banana is real, but I would suggest that you can not know understand its nature. In that case, what makes it real?

It is similar to the following story...

A man is lost out in the middle of the desert, nearly dehydrated past the point of return. It is the middle of the night and the man finally stumbles and falls. He notices that he has landed next to a fluid filled vessel. With his last remaining strength, the man holds the vessel up to his parched lips and savors the life saving liquid. Feeling greatly relieved that he will survive, he falls into a deep, sound sleep.

Upon opening his eyes the next morning and feeling exuberant with renewed energy, he turns to his side and notices that he vessel he was drinking out of was a crushed animal skull and the liquid was its decaying brain. Immediately, the man became violently ill and vomited what little he had left in his GI tract. He was dead by evening.

The bottom-line is that what we think has little to do with reality [on any level].
In the story some aspects had to be absolute and some relative to the man who drank from the skull. The absolute was the realization that the miasma he drank had been sickening. The relative was that he had imagined at first that it had been a reviving tonic he had drunk.

However, to the reader the entire story was absolute. If it hadn't been, then the entire lesson or moral of the story would have been lost. But the moral was not lost, and therefore everything in the story was absolute.

So the relative/absolute question is suspect to being objective and subjective, depending on the point of view.

An absolute can't be subjective, and a relative can't be objective. Yet the story forces the reader to accept that the absolute and relative are both objective and subjective.

And this is where the dualism of absolute/relative fails. One can't both be and not be at the same time and in the same respect. Yet the story depends for its message to be communicated that the story be both objective and subjective, and that is booooiiiinggg....

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Spectrum
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Re: Which is Real, the relative or The Absolute?

Post by Spectrum »

There are no ontological absolute, i.e. THE ABSOLUTE. [capital 'A'] in general reality.

What is real is the real relative and the real absolute [small 'a'].

What is 'real' is always conditioned to the Framework and System it is referenced upon.
The general Framework and System range from Common Sense, Scientific, to Quantum, to a Reasoned [possible] Framework.

Most of the time we live within the reality of the Common Sense [5 senses +] Framework and that is sufficient for humans to survive most of the time.
Now what is real within common sense is not necessary real [true] under the Scientific or Quantum framework. A solid thing [e.g. rock] within the common sense or basic scientific world is merely 99.9% space within the Quantum World.

Point is reality is relative to its Framework and System and what is critical is they have their utilities [pros] to humanity and their cons as well.

The ABSOLUTE [an impossibility for realness] however can be generated within a Framework and System based on Reason [e.g. God and Moral Absolutes.] and the Psychological World but it is impossible to be real in the other Frameworks.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
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Ranvier
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Re: Which is Real, the relative or The Absolute?

Post by Ranvier »

Very interesting question...
Experience dictates that everything is relative and hence nothing is real. Yet, there are two concepts that seem to be absolute and therefore real.
Prothero
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Re: Which is Real, the relative or The Absolute?

Post by Prothero »

I think reality is composed of ephemeral events, interactions and relationships. So I don't think absolutes in any physical sense really exist, they are products of the imagination.
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Ranvier
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Re: Which is Real, the relative or The Absolute?

Post by Ranvier »

Not if we include imagination into reality. For us reality often means the physical aspects that we can observe but what if our consciousness is also a reality beyond biochemical reactions?
Prothero
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Re: Which is Real, the relative or The Absolute?

Post by Prothero »

Ranvier wrote:Not if we include imagination into reality. For us reality often means the physical aspects that we can observe but what if our consciousness is also a reality beyond biochemical reactions?
Well there was a reason I said "absolutes in any physical sense".
You immediately get into a problem of defining what is "real", if we include ideas and imagination as real, there may absolutes like mathematical concepts or ideals.
Or you could slip into idealism like Platonic forms as the "real" and physical forms as "maya, illusion, imperfect manifestations" of the "real".
Lots of people think of physical properties as absolute, and objects as permanent, but I think when one does the analysis and investigation, which includes information from quantum physics, properties are really relationships and interactions.
So there are no absolutes in the physical realm and whether abstract things like ideas, maths and formulas are part of the "real" is open to definition and debate.
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Ranvier
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Re: Which is Real, the relative or The Absolute?

Post by Ranvier »

I agree, you said it much better than I did...
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