I don't understand the perceived threat of transgender

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Spectrum
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Re: I don't understand the perceived threat of transgender

Post by Spectrum »

Burning ghost wrote:If you really wish to place the title of "problem solver" above your head then show me how you'd counter your own position please. We could learn a great deal from this and then you may even find me engaging in a debate where we're both arguing against each other and against ourselves too. THAT would be very interesting to me and is actually the very function which is happening over social media every day and one which I believe needs to happen more and more. For people to engage in discussions and debates, be misunderstood and then come to the realization that there is something to learn from what many refer to as "toxic forums".
One of the feature of an effective problem solving technique is the 'stress test' where stresses are inputed and allow the system to stretch until it breaks down.

I have presented the root causes of the problems, i.e.
  • 1. The problems [psychological and mental sufferings due to cognitive dissonance] related to the transgenders' as individual or as a group.

    2. The anti-transgenders emerging from the primal "us versus them" impulse.
I have argued both 1 and 2 are inherent problems of the human species from the DNA level.

Therefore the solutions are to resolve the problem of 1 or/and 2, or do nothing at all and retain the status quo with its associated problems.

I suggested we tackle problem 1 first [deal with the birth defects] in the future [not now] because it is the easier strategy of the two.

Stress Test:
Now, I can loosen my suggestions/proposal to deal with the birth defect of Gender dysphoria, if,
  • A. Humanity can manage the primal "us versus them" effectively.
    and/or
    B. Find effective solutions for the transgenders to deal with the cognitive dissonance and its related sufferings.
Thus if we can deal with the primal "us versus them" earlier than B, then, we can leave the transgenders and their birth defects alone with their associated sufferings.
This is provided the transgenders are secure enough not to demand laws to protect their pronouns against freedom speech and other restrictions.

My other potential failure is; humanity is unable to achieve the knowledge and competence to cure and prevent the birth defect of Gender dysphoria in the future. I am optimistic of this given the trend and rate of the exponential expansion of knowledge and technology we are currently experiencing.
We have already mapped the human genome [thought impossible not long ago] and we are on our way to map the human brain [http://www.humanconnectomeproject.org/].

Another threat to my proposal is, if do not achieve the required level of the average Morality Quotient of humanity. My optimism is based on the proven fact that the human morality tendency is inherent as it is evolving and progressing at an increasing trend.
Note the trend of growth on mirror neurons from primates to humans and it continuing growth in humans.
Morality is not just something that people learn, argues Yale psychologist Paul Bloom: It is something we are all born with. At birth, babies are endowed with compassion, with empathy, with the beginnings of a sense of fairness.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... of-babies/
What I proposed is for the future [not now], and that may be 50, 75, 100, 200 or > years' in the future, and I am optimistic humanity can achieve that in the future.
If you wish to start a thread about how to get rid of transgenderism from society go ahead. No harm in continuing here either I think? I doubt Eduk would mind.
I have given my reasons, i.e.
  • I am optimistic of this [cure of the birth defect of Gender dysphoria given the trend and rate of the exponential expansion of knowledge and technology we are currently experiencing.
    We have already mapped the human genome [thought impossible not long ago] and we are on our way to map the human brain [http://www.humanconnectomeproject.org/].
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
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Burning ghost
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Re: I don't understand the perceived threat of transgender

Post by Burning ghost »

Spectrum -

I wonder if you'd view this subject matter as being parallel to extreme feminism? We can see that most trangenders are not bothered about pronouns and that many are being victimized by a few extremists, much like the ridiculous disruption caused by McEnroe's honest and true comments about Sernena Williams and the knee-jerk ignorant pseudo-feminist response he found himself facing.

Do you agree that there is an important line of possible investigation into what I vaguely pointed at? Meaning the effect of mass global communications leading to a kind of mass cognitive dissonance; or rather people having these issues thrust into their faces more and more, thus being forced to face their own confusion to some degree or another.

I am still a little irked by you saying things like "birth defect". This is also an issue of so called "political correctness" where the negative use of such terms has been pushed so hard that they sound quite hostile (it is subtle and I am not saying you should change your words only guard against them being taken out of context more. The example of 'cure' was another one). I think it is perfectly understandable, within the English language, that people don't like being called "defective", "abnormal", or "disordered". As technical descriptions these are all useful. "mental illness" is now "brain disorder" ... this leads into the societal use of language to label and distinguish.

To follow on from the last paragraph (guessing you can see where I am going with this) I am touching on the "us and them" idea. We must differentiate between items of human experience so I completely understand what you are saying. The issue wedded to this is that we differentiate in order to understand and integrate not just to put up walls (both necessitate each other, or rather they are effectively the very same thing.) I really do see the issue as being about some trangenders being politically extreme and the extreme anti-trangender views too. I imagine those with an ounce of reasoning can see the actions of a few don't represent the majority, and that these groups are parts of human subdivisions, humans being a species that is VERY linear in terms of genetic difference.

I think we can all appreciate the difficulty of terms such as "syndrome", "disorder" and "disease". Obviously we have to use one of them the other option being to disregard them all and live with our eyes closed merely for the sake of trying not to offend people when we're doing nothing other than trying to uncover and deal with certain societal problems.

In terms of "global cognitive dissonance" we don't just sit comfortably in a box wrapped in cotton blankets. We each understand that to push out into the world is both psychologically painful and rewarding. This is in itself the paradox of human nature and the epitaph of the existential crisis that will never die. Some people are more inclined to face stresses and other are more inclined to avoid them.

Anyways, I still pretty much agree with everything you say. I am still curious about your thoughts toward the OP and what I've touched on about this particular issue being part of the communications explosion. All the usual human problems of religion, economics, politics, sexuality seem to me to be very much intense under the umbrella of communications networks, social media and such technological advances. I believe this has bled into many areas making some people on the extremes even more prone to actively strive for isolation and identity in a world they see as encroaching in upon them more and more every day. They are being forced to face the perpetual cognitive dissonance that is essentially every humans state of being and understanding.

If you'll allow me a little poetic licence I can better explicate this like so:

"The rock people have eaten all the sand! Kill them and grind them down so we have sand anew to bury our heads in!"

You can apply this analogy to whatever you wish.

Btw found the conversation with Peterson and transgender person I was referring to previously. Not watched it from start to finish myself yet:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkmzdiJXwaA
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Spectrum
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Re: I don't understand the perceived threat of transgender

Post by Spectrum »

Burning ghost wrote:Spectrum -
I wonder if you'd view this subject matter as being parallel to extreme feminism? We can see that most trangenders are not bothered about pronouns and that many are being victimized by a few extremists, much like the ridiculous disruption caused by McEnroe's honest and true comments about Serena Williams and the knee-jerk ignorant pseudo-feminist response he found himself facing.
Btw, are you aware of Bill C16 of Canada [read it up] that bent for the transgenders.
This is a serious Law and has extensive consequences.
This bill was passed by the Law makers of Canada and has majority support. Thus the problem of transgenders is not restricted to a 'few' extremists.

You do not seem to be up to date with what is going on in this world in relation to the transgenders together with the gay communities. At present transgenders are being thrown off tall buildings and they are exposed to all sorts of oppression, biasness, bullying, etc. Are you accepting killing a few transgenders off tall building is OK?
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
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Burning ghost
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Re: I don't understand the perceived threat of transgender

Post by Burning ghost »

Spectrum -

Do I take it you didn't read past the first paragraph or that you don't wish to comment on the other things (regarding the OP) I said?

Of course I am not up to date. I am limited in my ability to research and read about every piece of news. Considering I posted a video about Peterson and him talking about the bill I would have thought you'd at least see that I am aware of at least the gist of the law passed and of his opposition to it.

A great many people suffer on Earth due to a number of prejudices. I am not inclined to find the purposeful "killing" of any humans as either acceptable or necessary unless said humans are purposefully going around trying to kill other humans in some destructive orgy (meaning something along the lines of, if someone raises a gun to shoot me for no good reason then I will be willing to shoot them dead first.) The issue now is about educating people and putting other guards in place to protect such irrational prejudices to protect the innocent non-aggressors and, paradoxically, to instill a degree of resistance to the idea of passivism as being a good means to guard against aggressions.
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Gertie
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Re: I don't understand the perceived threat of transgender

Post by Gertie »

BG
If you wish to start a thread about how to get rid of transgenderism from society go ahead.
Yeah, then we can have one on how to get rid of gayism, or jewism, or blackism, or other people who 'normal people' have problems with.
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Burning ghost
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Re: I don't understand the perceived threat of transgender

Post by Burning ghost »

Gertie wrote:BG
If you wish to start a thread about how to get rid of transgenderism from society go ahead.
Yeah, then we can have one on how to get rid of gayism, or jewism, or blackism, or other people who 'normal people' have problems with.
My point was the whole issue is a symptom of the world today. It is most certainly not the point Spectrum is making. There are events in the world that shift into every "category" of peoples. For this reason it is good to talk about the micro and macro repercussions which involve "group" identities on a case by case basis and as a whole (meaning, blacks, whites, Europeans, Spanish speakers, Latin, sexuality and sexual identities, Jews, teenagers, unemployed ... the list goes on and they all tend to bleed into one another too.)
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Gertie
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Re: I don't understand the perceived threat of transgender

Post by Gertie »

Spectrum is fantasising about a day when we can get rid of people who don't fit constructed concepts of what is 'normal', based on what is most generously described as a naive understanding of neurology and societies. Then offers a 'might is right' solution - which itself is doomed to fail, if his own analysis is correct that people are unable to overcome their tribalism and othering - because they will always be compelled to find someone else to 'other'.

This has pretty much been covered in the thread. Encouraging new ones which act as magnets to people to further muse on their pet theories and biases about marginalised groups who have to put up with that crap as a daily part of their lives isn't philosophy.
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Burning ghost
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Re: I don't understand the perceived threat of transgender

Post by Burning ghost »

Gertie -

I don't agree with that. I think the issue is he is focusing on the micro on one hand and the macro on the other. There does also seem to be a disjointedness to his position because of this, AND I do honestly think he is aware of it to some degree and that is why he is here.

I do think the opposite human respond to the "alien" needs to be taken into consideration to add weight for/against whatever position he sees as being the most constructive. Meaning the "us and them" being both a threat and an opportunity. He seems possessed by the idea of threat and fear over humanities natural investigative disposition and inclination to take risks and reap the benefits of learning.

All that said the whole popularity of the "transgender" subject is due to the strange idea of enforcing by law how we SHOULD refer to people. I think it is merely where the global problem of mass communications has manifested itself and it could easily have been focused on elsewhere as there is always some minorities of a "group" (or outside the "group" and merely along for the ride of being a self-righteous defender of any old item under public scrutiny) pushing for extended rights.

Spectrum may not be being so careful with his words as he could be. I am not going to say "SHOULD BE" though. What is more I gather Spectrum is not writing in his first language and somehow manages to write better than most native speakers (albeit with, what I would call, a certain lack in subtlety and harsh exposition in some cases regarding the use of terms and where they are presented in the text - already been there with the "cure" thing which he explained was not meant in the way I read it. This is merely a problem of colloquial use and technical jargon. Such ambiguity can lead to misunderstanding and offense.)

I think we'll get further here if we simply ask "Did you mean X and Y or have I misread what you've written and drawn conclusions you didn't wish to express?"

If we show him what looks bad and he says he meant something different then we help refine the argument and discussion better. A jibe or two doesn't hurt and he seems resilient enough to continue to try and express himself with a little more clarity each time. IF we reveal a monster lurking beneath than we can challenge it. I don't see a monster yet and I am not looking for one.
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Spectrum
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Re: I don't understand the perceived threat of transgender

Post by Spectrum »

Gertie wrote:Spectrum is fantasising about a day when we can get rid of people who don't fit constructed concepts of what is 'normal', based on what is most generously described as a naive understanding of neurology and societies. Then offers a 'might is right' solution - which itself is doomed to fail, if his own analysis is correct that people are unable to overcome their tribalism and othering - because they will always be compelled to find someone else to 'other'.
Your response is similar to the anti-transgenders, i.e. sense a threat when interpreting my views as not 'normal' to your expectations.
The typical responses from the majority to my such views [note a concern for humanity] is as if I am a mad scientist trying to create a Frankenstein monster.

"'might is right' solution" ???
Note I have qualified many times, what I am proposing is for the future when we have the knowledge and competence, it must be fool proof, i.e. no side effects, has majority consensus and imperatively VOLUNTARY.

In addition, my proposals for the future are grounded on a high level of morality, i.e. high average moral quotient of the majority.

-- Updated Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:39 pm to add the following --
[b]Burning ghost[/b] wrote:If we show him what looks bad and he says he meant something different then we help refine the argument and discussion better. A jibe or two doesn't hurt and he seems resilient enough to continue to try and express himself with a little more clarity each time. IF we reveal a monster lurking beneath than we can challenge it. don't see a monster yet and I am not looking for one.
I understand you do not agree with my views on this issue but at least you are challenging it.

Btw, I don't have a personal agenda on this issue and with what I had proposed I won't be around in 100 or 200 years' time when the possibility is actualized. This is a philosophy forum, this issue is just a matter of discussion and I am game for it.
To ensure the devil [monster] is well caged, I have mentioned many times my personal approach [as a concerned citizen of humanity] is driven by my adopted Bodhisattva's vow of empathy and compassion for all things.

Language is a limitation for me but my ideas on this issue is not lacking. Point is, discussion in such a forum is limited and in addition to my own time constraints, I can only present the tips of the icebergs of knowledge I have. You'll note the amount of knowledge that I have unfolded and introduced here [there are deeper levels of the icebergs we have not dug into yet] while many are merely stuck to a subjective personal dogmatic ideology of blinded empathy.

-- Updated Fri Aug 25, 2017 2:54 am to add the following --

This is the problem:

A transgender Singaporean and her friend have been sentenced to a year in prison in the capital of the United Arab Emirates for dressing in a feminine way, friends and family say.
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wir ... d-49393188


For merely dressing in a feminine way, both transgenders has been jailed in Dubai for a year. This is abominable.
This is driven by Sharia Law, i.e. based on Allah's word.
As long as Islam exists, this is what will happen eternally.

Meanwhile elsewhere transgenders are thrown off tall buildings.

I have analyzed the problem thoroughly and have proposed effective solutions for the future [not now] but have received condemnations from the transgender apologists.

My question to the transgenders apologists is how are you going to solve the above problem now and in the future or eternally [theoretical]?
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
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