I don't understand the perceived threat of transgender

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Spectrum
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Re: I don't understand the perceived threat of transgender

Post by Spectrum »

Belindi wrote:Spectrum wrote:
As I had stated, personally I have no problem with transgenders and the LBGT community.
But I recognized the problem of the hardcore majority who are anti-LBGT who cannot change their brain immediately due to the embedded instincts from million of years of evolution.
What do you mean: "the LBGT community" ?

LBGT are simply people. Are they a set apart community? I doubt it . Maybe on the occasions when LGBT people demonstrate for rights they for a community.
There you go, you have answered your own question.
Anyway my more important point is that what you call "the hardcore majority" and indeed LBGT people too, are unlike wild animals who act according to "the embedded instincts of evolution". True, humans retain what may be called instincts to a significant degree. However now that we are don't breed solely according to natural selection and to a significant degree we breed according to artificial selection we need to reason with kindness about individuals' preferences.
I think you missed my point.

Note my point - "the hardcore majority who are anti-LBGT." I was referring to those who are anti-LBGT and are "hardcore" i.e. the fundamentalist extremists who will not hesitate to kill homosexuals and transgenders on sight. Example are the jihadists who throw homosexuals/transgenders off the roof of buildings.
6 Stabbed at Jerusalem Gay Pride Parade by ultra-Orthodox Jewish Assailant
http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.668796
You, Spectrum, reveal yourself to identify your own prejudices and weaknesses with some fiction which you like to believe are those of the normal human being. But they aren't. They are your own prejudices and weaknesses.
There is no absolute 'normal' as dictated by a God. What is normal is something that is very relative but it is objective.

If the average height of all the 7 billion people is 5 feet 6 inches, then those whose height is between 5 to 6 feet would be consider normal [Normal (Bell) Curve]. A person whose height is merely 2.5 feet would be considered as relatively abnormal from an objective perspective. What is the problem with that for the purpose of discussion.

As with the degree of sexuality it also follow a Normal Distribution {Bell} Curve pattern.
For research and discussion sake there should be no problem in stating what is normal [average] sexuality and what is abnormal for those at the extreme percentile.
Obviously when face to face with a transgender [high degree] person I would not say in his/her face s/he is abnormal.

Btw, I have discussed with many transgenders in various forums, read their blogs and many do not have any hesitation to acknowledge their transgender thoughts are due to a mental illness and they wish they were normal but have to accept their fate. Nevertheless I believe we should soften this issue and not call it a mental illness even though it is technically.

-- Updated Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:32 pm to add the following --
Gertie wrote:There's a fascinating documentary on a classroom experiment showing just how ingrained and easy to trigger our evolved in-group/out-group instincts are if you're interested. A Class Divided -

http://documentaryvine.com/video/frontl ... s-divided/

The Stanford experiment is another famous one.

Understanding our evolved tendencies, the context in which the neurobiological mechanisms developed to be suited to, and how norms become enculturated and passed on is vital in understanding ourselves, and the problems they can lead to in the very different social contexts we inhabit now in our globalised world of inter-connected strangers, from the link between how we perceive and categorise norms and normativity, to medicalising difference.
This is the point, it is the "evolved in-group/out-group instincts" within humanity that trigger trangenders as a threat to the 'out-group'.

If we do research on the psychology of "in-group/out-group" the differentiating element can be anything from tribes, sports, skin color, nations, religions, culture, any groupings, etc. etc. and that include sexuality, in this case, the transgenders.

The fact is we are faced with 2 main problems here i.e.
  • 1. The evolved in-group/out-group instincts embedded deep in the brain that perceived the out-group subliminally as an 'existential' threat leading the extreme of killing those of the out-group.

    2. The emergence of a percentile of transgenders who are different from the majority of the 7+ billion people on Earth.
The extremists [hardcore] in 1 when faced with transgenders will naturally perceive [subliminally] them as a threat resort to violence and evil.
e.g.
6 Stabbed at Jerusalem Gay Pride Parade by ultra-Orthodox Jewish Assailant
http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.668796
Now the theoretical solution is very easy, i.e. get rid [the mental problem] of either 1 or 2 then there will be no such problems. Or better still, get rid of both the mental problem [not the physical humans] re 1 and 2.

But in practice, evolved in-group/out-group instincts which are embedded in the brain thus difficult to get-rid of or resolve. Perhaps we could educate and counsel those involved but the most is we can change the marginal ones but not those who are hardcore.

In practice we cannot get rid of the transgenders as they are born that way due to deviations in their DNA.

As concerned citizens of humanity we need to recognize the above two problems and how when they meet, generate evils and violence.
At present [rather than be ostriches] we should look at both factors and try to mitigate the relating problem as much as possible. In the long run [future] we should strive to look for more effective solutions using ethical fool proofs methods.

What is I see here is many just want to brush off the real problems like ostriches, want to shut others off and hope the problems will go away. I prefer to recognize the problems as they are and suggest possible solutions to tackle both problems which are very deep rooted.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
Steve3007
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Re: I don't understand the perceived threat of transgender

Post by Steve3007 »

Spectrum:
This is the point, it is the "evolved in-group/out-group instincts" within humanity that trigger trangenders as a threat to the 'out-group'.
I guess you started the topic about the research demonstrating mistrust of atheists (even by other atheists) partly because it's quite closely related to this topic? They do indeed seem to me to both be about the way that we humans have developed techniques to easily assess who we can trust and how we can keep our tribe cohesive in a hard and dangerous world.
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Re: I don't understand the perceived threat of transgender

Post by Belindi »

Spectrum wrote:
Btw, I have discussed with many transgenders in various forums, read their blogs and many do not have any hesitation to acknowledge their transgender thoughts are due to a mental illness and they wish they were normal but have to accept their fate. Nevertheless I believe we should soften this issue and not call it a mental illness even though it is technically.
The main problem in this discussion is what is to define illness, pathology. I take your point about the bell curve, and about how LGBT people self identify at least since they had a name for their identity, itself an advance in welfare.

The clinical criteria of illness, of pathology, is 1. morbidity and 2. suffering.

To seek the causes of morbidity and suffering we separate nature from nurture. In an scientifically and morally advanced society we value the individual more than the manacles of society. True, we need society, but only insofar as society impartially protects all individuals. Society's devaluing of LGBT is the cause of suffering associated with LGBT : the cause of suffering associated with LGBT is not "mental illness" or any pathology.

I'd imagine you would know better than to confuse the information on a graph, the bell curve, with moral precepts and scientific causes.
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Sy Borg
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Re: I don't understand the perceived threat of transgender

Post by Sy Borg »

Spectrum, what of diversity? Logically, there must be some men who are the very most masculine and women who are the very most feminine by the standard measures. Then there would be logically those who are highly androgynous. That's a difficult hand to be dealt in life due to the irrational fears of those fearing the "unknown", the fear being nicely summarised by Rainman earlier.

I also think it's a molehill that's been made a mountain because of ... I don't know ... Caitlin Jenner?? Maybe gays are too accepted within in-groups so a new outsider target is needed for in-group bonding purposes?
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Re: I don't understand the perceived threat of transgender

Post by Belindi »

Greta, Spectrum thinks that primary sex organs either define gender or at least cause gender. (see his observation of penis during peeing). Spectrum feels that sex and gender are the same or, if they aren't the same, they jolly well should be.

-- Updated August 8th, 2017, 8:13 am to add the following --

Maybe the starring of a female actor in the role of Dr Who will help the idea that anatomical sex can happily coexist with male gender. That remains to be seen how she delivers Dr Who in the forthcoming series.

The speech of Queen Elizabeth 1 at Tilbury " know I have the body of a weak, feeble woman; but I have the heart and stomach of a king, and of a king of England too, and think foul scorn ..." is a famous example of sex and gender differentiated.

-- Updated August 8th, 2017, 8:18 am to add the following --

Sorry if I misquoted who posted about observing his gender during peeing. It may have been someone else with a penis, however I seem to remember it was Spectrum's penis that was the case in point.
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Re: I don't understand the perceived threat of transgender

Post by Alias »

Some of you might like this movie http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0107756/
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Burning ghost
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Re: I don't understand the perceived threat of transgender

Post by Burning ghost »

Worth a watch if you've got 10 mins free :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3HyDCGYS0g
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Re: I don't understand the perceived threat of transgender

Post by Rainman »

Belindi wrote:Rainman wrote:
It isn't a priority in our school system to get the populace to understand ourselves.
The schools you refer to must be terribly backward ones. What schools are those , by the way?
Yes, they are backward to my mind anyway. In Canada, we spend way too much time on math, English, specific sciences and way too little time on sociological and psychological understandings. We don't even teach first aid. We only have the kids in school for such a short time. If we don't teach children to think independently with a better understanding of what being a human in today's world then we will reap the consequences. Once the kids are out of school then their separate religions, cultures, media interests will dominate their thinking. So, if they are not independent thinkers by the time they graduate from high school then they can be so easily manipulated.

It's another topic but I have never seen the reasoning for teaching calculus or advanced English grammar or flower reproduction in high schools to the detriment of learning about HOW humans think or how to administer first aid or nutrition or good mental health.
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Re: I don't understand the perceived threat of transgender

Post by Belindi »

Rainman, if it's any consolation the study of English literature is mainly about understanding ourselves.
Dark Matter
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Re: I don't understand the perceived threat of transgender

Post by Dark Matter »

Eduk wrote: Like I said, I just don't get it. Who's dying?
Civilization.
Alias
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Re: I don't understand the perceived threat of transgender

Post by Alias »

Dark Matter wrote:
Eduk wrote: Like I said, I just don't get it. Who's dying?
Civilization.
If all it takes to kill civilization is a few - a very few! - people who don't conform to an arbitrary gender "norm",
then civilization surely isn't robust enough to withstand war, famine and pestilence.
Dark Matter
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Re: I don't understand the perceived threat of transgender

Post by Dark Matter »

Alias wrote:
Dark Matter wrote: (Nested quote removed.)

Civilization.
If all it takes to kill civilization is a few - a very few! - people who don't conform to an arbitrary gender "norm",
then civilization surely isn't robust enough to withstand war, famine and pestilence.
Yup.
Spectrum
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Re: I don't understand the perceived threat of transgender

Post by Spectrum »

Steve3007 wrote:I guess you started the topic about the research demonstrating mistrust of atheists (even by other atheists) partly because it's quite closely related to this topic? They do indeed seem to me to both be about the way that we humans have developed techniques to easily assess who we can trust and how we can keep our tribe cohesive in a hard and dangerous world.
Not before posting. But I did notice after posting, they are similar re in-group versus out-group.
The perceived threat from atheists is more intense and that is why we have genocides of non-believers, e.g. by Muslims, the inquisitions, etc.

The perceived threat against transgenders by the hardcore within the majority is still a problem that must be resolved.

-- Updated Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:46 pm to add the following --
[b]Belindi[/b] wrote:Spectrum wrote:
The main problem in this discussion is what is to define illness, pathology. I take your point about the bell curve, and about how LGBT people self identify at least since they had a name for their identity, itself an advance in welfare.

The clinical criteria of illness, of pathology, is 1. morbidity and 2. suffering.

To seek the causes of morbidity and suffering we separate nature from nurture. In an scientifically and morally advanced society we value the individual more than the manacles of society. True, we need society, but only insofar as society impartially protects all individuals. Society's devaluing of LGBT is the cause of suffering associated with LGBT : the cause of suffering associated with LGBT is not "mental illness" or any pathology.

I'd imagine you would know better than to confuse the information on a graph, the bell curve, with moral precepts and scientific causes.
It is not a physical illness but rather a mental illness because the effects of transgenders generate confusions and lots of mental anxieties due to self doubts, low self-esteem plus the negative responses from the hardcore anti-transgender segment of society.

As I had listed there are two main problems to be addressed, i.e.
  • 1. The individual transgender's physical and psychological problem that need either physical alignment and/or psychological counselling.

    2. The natural effect of the in-group versus out-group effect from society who naturally perceived transgender [individual and as group] as a threat.
Due to the perceived threat [naturally occurring as evolved], transgender are 'devalued' by a critical SOME within our society. The biggest problem is how can you resolve this moral issue which is inherent as evolved? Can we just switch off the thinking of those evil minded from the anti-transgender group? One has to be familiar with neuro-psychology to address this problem.
This inherent problem is also encoded in the immutable holy texts, thus one will need to get rid of the Abrahamic religions to resolve a major part of the world wide transgender issue.

Note I have known much better [than you] morally, scientifically, etc. in identifying and presenting the critical variables of the problem for discussion.

There is no effectiveness by merely showing empathy and expressing compassion/sympathy for the transgenders, what we need is identifying the critical elements of the problems and finding solutions [in such discussions] to resolve it.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
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Burning ghost
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Re: I don't understand the perceived threat of transgender

Post by Burning ghost »

AS usual spectrum just wants to dig around in your brain and not bother to reason with people. Why reason when you can just change their brains?? It that your thinking spectrum? Or do you only think that for religious fanatics?
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Spectrum
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Re: I don't understand the perceived threat of transgender

Post by Spectrum »

[b]Greta[/b] wrote:Spectrum, what of diversity? Logically, there must be some men who are the very most masculine and women who are the very most feminine by the standard measures. Then there would be logically those who are highly androgynous. That's a difficult hand to be dealt in life due to the irrational fears of those fearing the "unknown", the fear being nicely summarised by Rainman earlier.

I also think it's a molehill that's been made a mountain because of ... I don't know ... Caitlin Jenner?? Maybe gays are too accepted within in-groups so a new outsider target is needed for in-group bonding purposes?
What is specifically male or female is represented by their physical and mental qualities.

To put the problem of transgender in perspective [say of the male] we have the following;
  • 1. 100% Physical male and 90-100% mentally male - the macho male
    2. 100% Physical male and 0-10% mentally male - the sissy
    3. 100% Physical male and 0-10% mentally female - mild transgender female
    4. 100% Physical male and 90-100% mentally female - full transgender female.
As I had stated elsewhere the brain and mind operate on a modular basis with various sub-programs. As such there is a neural algorithm of female-ness where all the female traits are coded within a sub-program.
In the case of a full-fledge female transgender, a 100% physical male is 'WRONGLY' connected with the female-ness sub-program.
Wrong wirings happen, e.g. as in synaesthesia where the tasting nerves are 'wrongly' connected to the optic nerves within the brain. Thus instead of tasting sweetness such a synaestheist may see colors instead.
So a female transgender is a case of wrong wirings in connecting the correct physical with appropriate mental programs.

There is a possibility of correcting those in 2 and 3 via counselling, etc. but it would be difficult to correct [rewire] a full fledge female or male transgender.

Transgender people have existed ever since humans emerged and has suffered in various ways. Due to the natural aversion for people of the out-groups [transgender] I believe many would have suffered biasness, ridicule, torture and being killed throughout human history in various societies.

It is only in recent years with the greater acceptance of the gay community that the transgenders are trying to bring their case to greater prominence with the hope of acceptance.
I believe there has been much improvements in the acceptance and recognition of the transgenders since they have been more in the News [Caitlin Jenner] BUT the biggest hurdle they [other others of the like] will face is the natural [as evolved] negative attitude of the majority in-group as represented by the majority who are theists.
This problem [for the transgenders] will not go away until the Abrahamic religions are got rid of.

-- Updated Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:37 pm to add the following --
[b]Belindi[/b] wrote:Greta, Spectrum thinks that primary sex organs either define gender or at least cause gender. (see his observation of penis during peeing). Spectrum feels that sex and gender are the same or, if they aren't the same, they jolly well should be.
Nope I had never said they are the same.
As I had stated there are the physical and the mental aspect of the male and female.

Within the mental aspects we have what is [1] typical female mental qualities and [2] female sexuality [mental]. These are supported by different neural sub-programs.

For example a lesbian may behave like any female but do not have any female sexuality towards a male.

-- Updated Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:48 pm to add the following --
[b]Burning ghost[/b] wrote:AS usual spectrum just wants to dig around in your brain and not bother to reason with people. Why reason when you can just change their brains?? It that your thinking spectrum? Or do you only think that for religious fanatics?
Note I have presented lots of analysis, e.g. the various aspects of what is maleness and females and the breakdowns of degrees etc. in a very rational and objective manner.
What credible views have you posted for consideration?

There is no room to change the brain when the wrong connections of the modular programs are already hardwired during birth.
Rewiring is only possible [via counselling, etc.] in the milder cases of mis-connections due to the plasticity of the brain for the younger person.

What I have done is identifying and listing the critical elements of the problems.

Optimistically, I believe in the future [100 years?] we can prevent and reduce the wrong connections within the brain from happening in the embryo stage.
In addition in the future we will be able to get rid of ALL religions and thus the embedded anti-LBGT doctrines in especially the Abrahamic religions.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
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