What is a choice?

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Socrateaze
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Re: What is a choice?

Post by Socrateaze »

Count Lucanor wrote:
Socrateaze wrote:
I've read that most of our actions are on "auto pilot," especially the television generation.
Well, the critique of the passive modes of consumption, especially of entertainment in media, will not go so far as to claim that people make no choices. They may be manipulated, but the whole point is that they are not forced, and they choose freely their ball and chain.
Socrateaze wrote:When we are confronted with things that are out of our everyday automation processes, then we start making real choices. We all have known what it feels like if your boss tells you to put the keys in a new spot and you've put them in the old place for years. So how much of what we do is automated?
Not much, I think. Maybe the involuntary reflexes, like blinking, or the automated processes like breathing, pumping blood, etc.
Socrateaze wrote: What about automatic writing? The same applies for some forms of art. Rationality lives in different realms of the mind; sometimes they work together, sometimes they do no.
The writing itself may have escaped the control of consciousness, but getting to the point of handling a pen and being ready to achieve the glory for Surrealism is a very conscious decision.
It is the escaped control of consciousness that I'm interested in. I think more is automated than blinking and the pumping of blood. In fact, I think whole thought processes, personalities and cultures are based on that, which is familiar to us. I think we make very few choices, or at least original ones. I think many people are about as original as a mass-produced 10 cent shoelace - because they simply can't break out of any of these mindsets and patterns.

To be honest, pure choice is rare and rather creates discomfort and irritation in people when it actually presents itself.

-- Updated August 29th, 2017, 9:30 am to add the following --
Phorever wrote:
Socrateaze wrote:What is a choice? How do they come about? Why do people who are prone to make certain choices suddenly make a different choice? If you have a bad character, why do you sometimes make the same choice as a person with a good character and vice versa? If the environment plays a role, why does it not have the same effect on someone that has a similar personality?

Why do people suddenly change their habits with no apparent external influence? Why do others never change them? Does external influence alone have bearing on our choices? Why does someone sometimes wake up the next day and somewhere suddenly feel like they want to change their convictions? If nothing moved them to do so, what did?
A choice is what you picked. Much of that decision comes from your conditioning, culture, ideas, knowledge and philosophy about it.
I agree, but what about that which is not "much," but other than what you mentioned?
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- If you can paint the wind, I will tell you the secrets of the soul.
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Count Lucanor
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Re: What is a choice?

Post by Count Lucanor »

Socrateaze wrote:
It is the escaped control of consciousness that I'm interested in. I think more is automated than blinking and the pumping of blood. In fact, I think whole thought processes, personalities and cultures are based on that, which is familiar to us. I think we make very few choices, or at least original ones. I think many people are about as original as a mass-produced 10 cent shoelace - because they simply can't break out of any of these mindsets and patterns.

To be honest, pure choice is rare and rather creates discomfort and irritation in people when it actually presents itself.
As you might easily guess, I disagree. Interesting, though, that in this general view of an automated human society you include yourself, even along with those who make few original choices. A bit pessimistic, I must say, as it forces the circumstances always upon us, and the circumstances seem to be shaped by themselves, because there's no one free to devise them.

I will always defend a view that goes contrary to this fatalism: "Man is nothing else but that which he makes of himself. "
The wise are instructed by reason, average minds by experience, the stupid by necessity and the brute by instinct.
― Marcus Tullius Cicero
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Socrateaze
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Re: What is a choice?

Post by Socrateaze »

Count Lucanor wrote:
Socrateaze wrote:
It is the escaped control of consciousness that I'm interested in. I think more is automated than blinking and the pumping of blood. In fact, I think whole thought processes, personalities and cultures are based on that, which is familiar to us. I think we make very few choices, or at least original ones. I think many people are about as original as a mass-produced 10 cent shoelace - because they simply can't break out of any of these mindsets and patterns.

To be honest, pure choice is rare and rather creates discomfort and irritation in people when it actually presents itself.
As you might easily guess, I disagree. Interesting, though, that in this general view of an automated human society you include yourself, even along with those who make few original choices. A bit pessimistic, I must say, as it forces the circumstances always upon us, and the circumstances seem to be shaped by themselves, because there's no one free to devise them.

I will always defend a view that goes contrary to this fatalism: "Man is nothing else but that which he makes of himself. "
So you're going t deny most people won't think outside the box?
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Count Lucanor
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Re: What is a choice?

Post by Count Lucanor »

Socrateaze wrote:
So you're going t deny most people won't think outside the box?
Keeping inside a comfort zone, not thinking outside the box, does not preclude agency, choice. "Life is me and my circumstances", said an Spanish philosopher. An automated process is one in which the subject's consciousness does not participate, but in choosing what is more familiar, there are voluntary decisions involved. They are not inevitable. And even when a person is determined to keep inside the comfort zone, he/she needs to adjust to the ever changing circumstances. Such adjustment entails choice.
The wise are instructed by reason, average minds by experience, the stupid by necessity and the brute by instinct.
― Marcus Tullius Cicero
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Socrateaze
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Re: What is a choice?

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Count Lucanor wrote:
Socrateaze wrote:
So you're going t deny most people won't think outside the box?
Keeping inside a comfort zone, not thinking outside the box, does not preclude agency, choice. "Life is me and my circumstances", said an Spanish philosopher. An automated process is one in which the subject's consciousness does not participate, but in choosing what is more familiar, there are voluntary decisions involved. They are not inevitable. And even when a person is determined to keep inside the comfort zone, he/she needs to adjust to the ever changing circumstances. Such adjustment entails choice.
So what do you think is a choice then and how does it work?
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Count Lucanor
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Re: What is a choice?

Post by Count Lucanor »

Socrateaze wrote:
Count Lucanor wrote: (Nested quote removed.)

Keeping inside a comfort zone, not thinking outside the box, does not preclude agency, choice. "Life is me and my circumstances", said an Spanish philosopher. An automated process is one in which the subject's consciousness does not participate, but in choosing what is more familiar, there are voluntary decisions involved. They are not inevitable. And even when a person is determined to keep inside the comfort zone, he/she needs to adjust to the ever changing circumstances. Such adjustment entails choice.
So what do you think is a choice then and how does it work?
In the most simplest terms I can think of, choice is the conscious resolution on a course of action, having considered other possible courses of action.
The wise are instructed by reason, average minds by experience, the stupid by necessity and the brute by instinct.
― Marcus Tullius Cicero
Synthesis
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Re: What is a choice?

Post by Synthesis »

Socrateaze wrote:What I want to know is, why.
You can not ever know why, but that's ok.

If you knew the 'why' of one single thing, then you would know the why of all things.

People believing they know why is the gate through which they enter THE shortest road to Hell.
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Socrateaze
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Re: What is a choice?

Post by Socrateaze »

Count Lucanor wrote:
Socrateaze wrote: (Nested quote removed.)


So what do you think is a choice then and how does it work?
In the most simplest terms I can think of, choice is the conscious resolution on a course of action, having considered other possible courses of action.
Many choices are not conscious.

-- Updated September 5th, 2017, 12:20 pm to add the following --
Synthesis wrote:
Socrateaze wrote:What I want to know is, why.
You can not ever know why, but that's ok.

If you knew the 'why' of one single thing, then you would know the why of all things.

People believing they know why is the gate through which they enter THE shortest road to Hell.
We can approximate the why, which is why we are here.
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Synthesis
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Re: What is a choice?

Post by Synthesis »

Socrateaze wrote:
Synthesis wrote:
You can not ever know why, but that's ok.

If you knew the 'why' of one single thing, then you would know the why of all things.

People believing they know why is the gate through which they enter THE shortest road to Hell.
We can approximate the why, which is why we are here.
I do not believe that anybody knows why we are here.
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Socrateaze
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Re: What is a choice?

Post by Socrateaze »

Synthesis wrote:
Socrateaze wrote:

(Nested quote removed.)


We can approximate the why, which is why we are here.
I do not believe that anybody knows why we are here.
Why we're on the forum.

- As for why we are here, perhaps it's simply to be here.
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Synthesis
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Re: What is a choice?

Post by Synthesis »

Socrateaze wrote:
Synthesis wrote: (Nested quote removed.)

I do not believe that anybody knows why we are here.
Why we're on the forum.

- As for why we are here, perhaps it's simply to be here.
That's what I meant.

Your answer is universally correct.

Giving up the need to know is what liberation is all about.
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Socrateaze
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Re: What is a choice?

Post by Socrateaze »

Synthesis wrote:
Socrateaze wrote: (Nested quote removed.)


Why we're on the forum.

- As for why we are here, perhaps it's simply to be here.
That's what I meant.

Your answer is universally correct.

Giving up the need to know is what liberation is all about.
So you're suggesting we liberate ourselves from philosophy?
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- If you can paint the wind, I will tell you the secrets of the soul.
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Count Lucanor
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Re: What is a choice?

Post by Count Lucanor »

Socrateaze wrote:
Count Lucanor wrote: (Nested quote removed.)


In the most simplest terms I can think of, choice is the conscious resolution on a course of action, having considered other possible courses of action.
Many choices are not conscious.
As for example?
The wise are instructed by reason, average minds by experience, the stupid by necessity and the brute by instinct.
― Marcus Tullius Cicero
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Socrateaze
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Re: What is a choice?

Post by Socrateaze »

Count Lucanor wrote:
Socrateaze wrote: (Nested quote removed.)


Many choices are not conscious.
As for example?
A lot we do stems from instinct and automation. How often have we made a choice and pine over it afterwards? We don't always make choices consciously. Have you never regret any choice your made? Why is that? Did your dissension making let you down the first time or did rather react rashly on impulse?
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- If you can paint the wind, I will tell you the secrets of the soul.
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Re: What is a choice?

Post by A_Seagull »

Synthesis wrote:
Socrateaze wrote:What I want to know is, why.
You can not ever know why, but that's ok.

If you knew the 'why' of one single thing, then you would know the why of all things.

People believing they know why is the gate through which they enter THE shortest road to Hell.
Welcome back :)

-- Updated September 6th, 2017, 7:46 pm to add the following --
Socrateaze wrote:
It is the escaped control of consciousness that I'm interested in. I think more is automated than blinking and the pumping of blood. In fact, I think whole thought processes, personalities and cultures are based on that, which is familiar to us. I think we make very few choices, or at least original ones. I think many people are about as original as a mass-produced 10 cent shoelace - because they simply can't break out of any of these mindsets and patterns.

To be honest, pure choice is rare and rather creates discomfort and irritation in people when it actually presents itself.
Many people choose to follow the flock. It is a choice.
The Pattern Paradigm - yer can't beat it!
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