What is a choice?

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Count Lucanor
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Re: What is a choice?

Post by Count Lucanor »

Socrateaze wrote:
I simply think the randomness of choice makes it strange enough to enjoy unconventional considerations as to why it is so and what a choice is. It is a mystery, which begs more from us than for the extraordinary to be pinned down like a stick figure with mundane needles. I think none of the explanations, scientific or biological do justice to the mystery of thought and by that I do not say I don't like science - I simply think we have a lot more to learn before we can address this question. Though, I'm not asking for a scientific explanation here; I'm not asking anyone to make a new breakthrough. I cannot help, but to wonder with how many other undiscovered things a choice relates with.
There's a difference between randomness and things not being determined, which is not the case of events where choice is involved: no matter how uncertain the inputs and outputs, we do know they are linked in a chain of causes and effects.

Secondly, there's a difference between the open possibilites of choices and considering things mysterious and without explanation. I don't see choice having such an esoteric dimension. We often have a fair idea of what motivated a human act and what possible consequences were on the table before deciding an action. We can infer explanations from the most relevant factors. Surely we can't never know exactly all that triggered a choice, because faced with the same conditions, at least apparently, people can choose differently. But as being a complete mystery, that's a long shot.

Thought, the mind itself, not a complete mystery either. Since it was proposed not to invoke science, I'll argue from a purely philosophical perspective, which does not exclude experience. We know that our minds are embodied, that each mind belongs to each one of us, that we own our thoughts and that our consciousness carries with it the responsability of our actions. We know that our mind processes information from our senses, enables experience and define its nature. We know that we make representations of the world and that we can store them and recreate them. And we know that we can embed representations into others to structure our experience. It seems we know an awful lot about the mind, enough to locate our choices between a frame of possibilities that can be determined at some level.
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Socrateaze
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Re: What is a choice?

Post by Socrateaze »

Count Lucanor wrote:
Socrateaze wrote:
I simply think the randomness of choice makes it strange enough to enjoy unconventional considerations as to why it is so and what a choice is. It is a mystery, which begs more from us than for the extraordinary to be pinned down like a stick figure with mundane needles. I think none of the explanations, scientific or biological do justice to the mystery of thought and by that I do not say I don't like science - I simply think we have a lot more to learn before we can address this question. Though, I'm not asking for a scientific explanation here; I'm not asking anyone to make a new breakthrough. I cannot help, but to wonder with how many other undiscovered things a choice relates with.
There's a difference between randomness and things not being determined, which is not the case of events where choice is involved: no matter how uncertain the inputs and outputs, we do know they are linked in a chain of causes and effects.

Secondly, there's a difference between the open possibilites of choices and considering things mysterious and without explanation. I don't see choice having such an esoteric dimension. We often have a fair idea of what motivated a human act and what possible consequences were on the table before deciding an action. We can infer explanations from the most relevant factors. Surely we can't never know exactly all that triggered a choice, because faced with the same conditions, at least apparently, people can choose differently. But as being a complete mystery, that's a long shot.

Thought, the mind itself, not a complete mystery either. Since it was proposed not to invoke science, I'll argue from a purely philosophical perspective, which does not exclude experience. We know that our minds are embodied, that each mind belongs to each one of us, that we own our thoughts and that our consciousness carries with it the responsability of our actions. We know that our mind processes information from our senses, enables experience and define its nature. We know that we make representations of the world and that we can store them and recreate them. And we know that we can embed representations into others to structure our experience. It seems we know an awful lot about the mind, enough to locate our choices between a frame of possibilities that can be determined at some level.
Choice is not always motivated by something. There is not always a logical reason behind choice. Have you ever looked at a painting full of blots and smears? Suppose the artist just moved his hands over the canvas. How about the things we get up to when we're daydreaming - when our minds are not thinking at all and are just empty. Afterwards we ask ourselves, why did I do that? How many times have you done something, only to realize later you were not quite present in the moment?
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Ranvier
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Re: What is a choice?

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Re: What is a choice?

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Ranvier wrote:I had painted the wind...
That's so romantic... reminds me of the hit song by Spinal Tap, "Break Like The Wind".
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Socrateaze
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Re: What is a choice?

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Ranvier wrote:I had painted the wind...
http://onlinephilosophyclub.com/forums/ ... 91#p293991
I'm agnostic.

You have not painted the wind, you have painted leaves rustling in the wind.

"God" is not good or evil - but I have noted that there are two of them that look exactly the same as the other one. One is God, the other is not.

Good and evil are imaginary and is subject to our mastery of objectivity. We have twin gods; one is a shadow of the human mind, the other is beyond our horizon and cannot be intuited. Although we do it great honor with the notion of "god" we equally dishonor it with our anthropomorphism ... and then we get mad when the universe flips us off.

Good and evil does not exist, it exists only in our minds. We try to create perfect spheres, just like we try to create god; they both have this in common - they only exist in theory. But for the life of me, when I pick up a crooked precious stone I cannot help but admire its beauty.

Are you agnostic too, because if you're trying to "create the perfect sphere" by following any religion you'll be "eating Pi" for the rest of your life.
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Re: What is a choice?

Post by Ranvier »

I'm also agnostic, in the sense that I don't follow any organized religion but reserve the right to phagocytize any part of such wisdom to enhance my own understanding but ultimately I can only rely on my own senses and consciousness. I have painted the wind if one chooses to "see" it. What the "drawing" shows is that we exist because our Universe exists. Both "evil and "good" must exist for us to exist but "God" is the choice of what we wish to "see" in our pursuits to understand the "good" and "evil" from individual subjective perspective in context of pain and pleasure. My challenge would be to paint the "time" in wish to comprehend the secrets of the soul.
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Socrateaze
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Re: What is a choice?

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Ranvier wrote:I'm also agnostic, in the sense that I don't follow any organized religion but reserve the right to phagocytize any part of such wisdom to enhance my own understanding but ultimately I can only rely on my own senses and consciousness. I have painted the wind if one chooses to "see" it. What the "drawing" shows is that we exist because our Universe exists. Both "evil and "good" must exist for us to exist but "God" is the choice of what we wish to "see" in our pursuits to understand the "good" and "evil" from individual subjective perspective in context of pain and pleasure. My challenge would be to paint the "time" in wish to comprehend the secrets of the soul.
Well, I can agree with the largest part of what you're saying.

When I said however, to "paint the wind" I was not using a metaphor.

I'm glad I'm speaking to a fellow agnostic, because religion gets a bit tiresome for me to be frank. Like Jim Jeffrey said one can sum up the whole Bible in one sentence: "Try not to be a c*nt." I really can relate to that. Moreover we do not have to grab at impossibilities to understand the simple. It only takes a little bit of education and a measure of good upbringing to understand how to live. Like I said before, knowledge teaches us everything except how to be good people. Philosophy and religion has the tendency to over-complicate morality.

Since we are talking about, "what is a choice," I must say I did not have in mind a theological debate, but I guess these things will pop up eventually. I guess a choice is much like two things: the beating of a heart and the ticking of a grandfather clock. You can have a healthy heart, but get sick elsewhere in your body, but eventually the heart will stop too when you die from whatever. Grandfather clocks may be wound all the way, but lose time; but if you don't wind it - eventually it will stop ticking. Some days I feel fine and am healthy, but do things that I'm not proud of, whereas other times I feel wretched, but still manage not to explode at people.

I don't wind the clock in my study, because its chiming bothers me, but that's fine with the clock, I suppose. I think people have a strong measure of this power over us, especially if they are close to us. All I know is that I handle anger from strangers better than from people I know, which perhaps is a fault from my part. But when people stop "winding" you, you may keep time "make good choices," but eventually the pain of rejection gets to you and you can't keep quiet. Sometimes I feel that my heart beats well, but my actions in retrospect decline and eventually it's not a weak heart that kills me, but people I know that change my moods and feelings.

So if you'll allow me to discuss this aspect that affects our choice, (in other words socialism), then I would be glad to hear your thoughts on how this affects our choices and if we should allow it to.

As for time, I always enjoyed what the White Rabbit said to Alice when she asked how long is forever - "... sometimes just a second." If I had to paint time, I could paint two things: Two people sharing a kiss or Romeo kissing Juliet the last time; heaven or hell captured in eternities - take your pick.
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Ranvier
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Re: What is a choice?

Post by Ranvier »

We use certain words so often that they loose proper meaning building an inherent resistance to subjective interpretation of others. My previous comment wasn't meant to be "Theological", where reference to God was used only to describe the "good" choice. Essentially to make this as simple as to become dry, choice is made from pain or pleasure.

-- Updated August 26th, 2017, 4:32 pm to add the following --

For some deep meditation is a state of neither...
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Count Lucanor
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Re: What is a choice?

Post by Count Lucanor »

Socrateaze wrote:
Count Lucanor wrote: (Nested quote removed.)


There's a difference between randomness and things not being determined, which is not the case of events where choice is involved: no matter how uncertain the inputs and outputs, we do know they are linked in a chain of causes and effects.

Secondly, there's a difference between the open possibilites of choices and considering things mysterious and without explanation. I don't see choice having such an esoteric dimension. We often have a fair idea of what motivated a human act and what possible consequences were on the table before deciding an action. We can infer explanations from the most relevant factors. Surely we can't never know exactly all that triggered a choice, because faced with the same conditions, at least apparently, people can choose differently. But as being a complete mystery, that's a long shot.

Thought, the mind itself, not a complete mystery either. Since it was proposed not to invoke science, I'll argue from a purely philosophical perspective, which does not exclude experience. We know that our minds are embodied, that each mind belongs to each one of us, that we own our thoughts and that our consciousness carries with it the responsability of our actions. We know that our mind processes information from our senses, enables experience and define its nature. We know that we make representations of the world and that we can store them and recreate them. And we know that we can embed representations into others to structure our experience. It seems we know an awful lot about the mind, enough to locate our choices between a frame of possibilities that can be determined at some level.
Choice is not always motivated by something. There is not always a logical reason behind choice. Have you ever looked at a painting full of blots and smears? Suppose the artist just moved his hands over the canvas. How about the things we get up to when we're daydreaming - when our minds are not thinking at all and are just empty. Afterwards we ask ourselves, why did I do that? How many times have you done something, only to realize later you were not quite present in the moment?
I tend to disagree: choice is always motivated, it is the very reason it is a choice, because it was triggered by something. That's very different from motivations behind choices being logical ones, but at the end of the act there's always a rational control, that of basic awareness. A painting full of blots and smears tells us about an agent that made some conscious choices, even if they were actions that would produce a random effect over the canvas. I agree that sometimes we fall into "automatic" mode and do things somehow unconsciously, but those seem to be habits developed after repeated patterns of choices are internalized and no longer thought through.
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Re: What is a choice?

Post by Socrateaze »

Ranvier wrote:We use certain words so often that they loose proper meaning building an inherent resistance to subjective interpretation of others. My previous comment wasn't meant to be "Theological", where reference to God was used only to describe the "good" choice. Essentially to make this as simple as to become dry, choice is made from pain or pleasure.

-- Updated August 26th, 2017, 4:32 pm to add the following --

For some deep meditation is a state of neither...
If choice is made from pain and pleasure, why do people swim "up stream?" In other words, why do people sometimes sacrifice, doing things that do not give them pleasure to attain a better life for themselves? Also why do people make bad choices based on pleasure, that give them pain?
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LuckyR
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Re: What is a choice?

Post by LuckyR »

Socrateaze wrote:
Ranvier wrote:We use certain words so often that they loose proper meaning building an inherent resistance to subjective interpretation of others. My previous comment wasn't meant to be "Theological", where reference to God was used only to describe the "good" choice. Essentially to make this as simple as to become dry, choice is made from pain or pleasure.

-- Updated August 26th, 2017, 4:32 pm to add the following --

For some deep meditation is a state of neither...
If choice is made from pain and pleasure, why do people swim "up stream?" In other words, why do people sometimes sacrifice, doing things that do not give them pleasure to attain a better life for themselves? Also why do people make bad choices based on pleasure, that give them pain?
It is all delayed gratification. Some can appreciate it but alas, most have limited faculties in that area. Fortunes are won and lost based on this principle.
"As usual... it depends."
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Re: What is a choice?

Post by Socrateaze »

LuckyR wrote:
Socrateaze wrote: (Nested quote removed.)


If choice is made from pain and pleasure, why do people swim "up stream?" In other words, why do people sometimes sacrifice, doing things that do not give them pleasure to attain a better life for themselves? Also why do people make bad choices based on pleasure, that give them pain?
It is all delayed gratification. Some can appreciate it but alas, most have limited faculties in that area. Fortunes are won and lost based on this principle.
Nicely put, only, I'd say we lose more than fortunes sometimes.
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Re: What is a choice?

Post by LuckyR »

Socrateaze wrote:
LuckyR wrote: (Nested quote removed.)


It is all delayed gratification. Some can appreciate it but alas, most have limited faculties in that area. Fortunes are won and lost based on this principle.
Nicely put, only, I'd say we lose more than fortunes sometimes.
Oh, very true. It's just that using money as a marker makes it easier to keep score.
"As usual... it depends."
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Socrateaze
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Re: What is a choice?

Post by Socrateaze »

LuckyR wrote:
Socrateaze wrote: (Nested quote removed.)


Nicely put, only, I'd say we lose more than fortunes sometimes.
Oh, very true. It's just that using money as a marker makes it easier to keep score.
Yes, too much connects with money even our family life and love in many respects. Sometimes I wish we can feel regret before we make our mistakes.
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LuckyR
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Re: What is a choice?

Post by LuckyR »

Socrateaze wrote:
LuckyR wrote: (Nested quote removed.)


Oh, very true. It's just that using money as a marker makes it easier to keep score.
Yes, too much connects with money even our family life and love in many respects. Sometimes I wish we can feel regret before we make our mistakes.
To me, only a time traveler would feel regret before making a mistake.
"As usual... it depends."
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