What is a choice?

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Socrateaze
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Re: What is a choice?

Post by Socrateaze »

A Seagall wrote,
Many people choose to follow the flock. It is a choice.
But what bothers me is that many of them don't know better.
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- If you can paint the wind, I will tell you the secrets of the soul.
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Atreyu
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Re: What is a choice?

Post by Atreyu »

To answer the question as "technically" accurate as possible, I would define a "choice", at least in the sense in which we ordinarily view the term, as "the awareness of doing something when in theory there were other viable alternatives.

For example, I recently walked into the library I'm currently in. I can say I made a "choice" to come to the library, if I remember doing so and can theorize that there were other things I could have done instead.

If, however, I have no recollection of coming to the library (and therefore have no idea how I really got here), or if I assume that there was really nothing else I could have done (I had to come to the library because I had to get some things done here), then I can say that there was no choice, and that my actions were predetermined.

And in reality, the second position is always the "technically" correct one....
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Count Lucanor
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Re: What is a choice?

Post by Count Lucanor »

Socrateaze wrote:
Count Lucanor wrote: (Nested quote removed.)

As for example?
A lot we do stems from instinct and automation. How often have we made a choice and pine over it afterwards? We don't always make choices consciously. Have you never regret any choice your made? Why is that? Did your dissension making let you down the first time or did rather react rashly on impulse?
By now it seems pretty obvious that you're just confusing the word "choice" with the word "action", so when you say something like "we make choices unconsciously", you're really saying "we make actions unconsciously". That's what instinctive and automated actions are: unconscious, and that's why you'll never find examples of "unconscious choices" among them.

Regretting a previous choice doesn't make that choice automated or unconscious. You just changed your mind, either because new information is available or you missed it the first time.
The wise are instructed by reason, average minds by experience, the stupid by necessity and the brute by instinct.
― Marcus Tullius Cicero
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Bradiation
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Re: What is a choice?

Post by Bradiation »

Wonderful set of ponderers here. Choice! hmm... let me think... Should I make a choice based on my genetics? My injured buried past experiences? Or how about a choice made to benefit others without the standard emotional feedback of what we may receive in return? What if we became aware of ourselves to the point where the question of choice no longer requires an answer? Is this possible? Thus, the question of choice could be a stimulus. But what is stimulus? I do not know much but maybe this might be the question.
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Socrateaze
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Re: What is a choice?

Post by Socrateaze »

Atreyu wrote:To answer the question as "technically" accurate as possible, I would define a "choice", at least in the sense in which we ordinarily view the term, as "the awareness of doing something when in theory there were other viable alternatives.

For example, I recently walked into the library I'm currently in. I can say I made a "choice" to come to the library, if I remember doing so and can theorize that there were other things I could have done instead.

If, however, I have no recollection of coming to the library (and therefore have no idea how I really got here), or if I assume that there was really nothing else I could have done (I had to come to the library because I had to get some things done here), then I can say that there was no choice, and that my actions were predetermined.

And in reality, the second position is always the "technically" correct one....
I can agree with you here, but like I said to the Count, what about subconscious action. A choice, Count, and Atreyu, is also an action. What interests me is that we DO make sub conscious choices; who is to say the subconscious is not part of us and our decisions; I would wager much of our choices are subconscious before they are conscious and if they remain only subconscious do they not sometimes protect us against our misguided mechanisms, which I would say are more automated or traditionally set than the subconscious.

-- Updated September 7th, 2017, 2:51 am to add the following --

Our consciousness have models, but our subconscious is the source of our creativity.
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Count Lucanor
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Re: What is a choice?

Post by Count Lucanor »

Socrateaze wrote:
...what about subconscious action. A choice, Count, and Atreyu, is also an action. What interests me is that we DO make sub conscious choices; who is to say the subconscious is not part of us and our decisions; I would wager much of our choices are subconscious before they are conscious and if they remain only subconscious do they not sometimes protect us against our misguided mechanisms, which I would say are more automated or traditionally set than the subconscious.

Our consciousness have models, but our subconscious is the source of our creativity.
The theory of subconsciousness is a belief, and so far only that. I'm willing to consider any evidence that will start making it plausible, but there's none right now.

Choices might always be actions, but the opposite is not true. Not all actions are choices.
The wise are instructed by reason, average minds by experience, the stupid by necessity and the brute by instinct.
― Marcus Tullius Cicero
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Socrateaze
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Re: What is a choice?

Post by Socrateaze »

Count Lucanor wrote:
Socrateaze wrote:
...what about subconscious action. A choice, Count, and Atreyu, is also an action. What interests me is that we DO make sub conscious choices; who is to say the subconscious is not part of us and our decisions; I would wager much of our choices are subconscious before they are conscious and if they remain only subconscious do they not sometimes protect us against our misguided mechanisms, which I would say are more automated or traditionally set than the subconscious.

Our consciousness have models, but our subconscious is the source of our creativity.
The theory of subconsciousness is a belief, and so far only that. I'm willing to consider any evidence that will start making it plausible, but there's none right now.

Choices might always be actions, but the opposite is not true. Not all actions are choices.
We either are aware of everything that goes on in the mind that leads up to our choice or we're not. I tried to find a video on freewill, which I watched, but was unsuccessful. In it they talk about freewill as one of the topics, saying that most of what we do is decided before it gets into the consciousness. If that is the case, choice is an illusion, even our contemplation.
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- If you can paint the wind, I will tell you the secrets of the soul.
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A_Seagull
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Re: What is a choice?

Post by A_Seagull »

Socrateaze wrote:
Count Lucanor wrote: (Nested quote removed.)


The theory of subconsciousness is a belief, and so far only that. I'm willing to consider any evidence that will start making it plausible, but there's none right now.

Choices might always be actions, but the opposite is not true. Not all actions are choices.
We either are aware of everything that goes on in the mind that leads up to our choice or we're not. I tried to find a video on freewill, which I watched, but was unsuccessful. In it they talk about freewill as one of the topics, saying that most of what we do is decided before it gets into the consciousness. If that is the case, choice is an illusion, even our contemplation.
Have you perused "Thinking, Fast and Slow" by Daniel Kahneman ? You might find it relevant.
The Pattern Paradigm - yer can't beat it!
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Bradiation
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Re: What is a choice?

Post by Bradiation »

Cannot help to love such biological digging mechanisms...
Small nuggets of knowledge I have accumulated in the context of freewill thus far; the animal side of us (the me, the I, the ego, etc...) is ignorant from birth. And thus uses trial and error to discover how it fits in the world. The animal within us possess the 5 senses (smell, touch, taste, hearing, sight). Unfortunately, like all animals, it learns quickly how to use these five senses to create misinterpreted beliefs (Life is hard with its conclusions so why deny myself illusions) to satisfy its craving for superficial pleasure. Nature can be very harsh and the animal will try its very best to avoid pain and suffering... This pattern can lead to an empty existence as we as humans are much more than animals...
The misunderstood forces (the second voice, the entity, the all knowing, etc...) supposedly plays a major role in our animal's existence as it attempts to guide us while our animal makes CHOICES (Free Will) based on what it has already learned about the world and itself... If our animal decides to remain ignorant of its true nature (which is to discover itself), it then will continue to remain with the same or worse feelings of emptiness regardless of its distractions and accomplishments... This equates to an unappreciated life as its true gift has not been realized... On the other hand when the animal becomes aware of its gift (can see and plan the future thus being able to use its gifted talents for abundant contribution), and when it gives up control of self (the 5 senses identity attached to injured memories and beliefs), All that would be left is compassion, empathy, and generosity. This would be our true identity, unattached to the injured beliefs and emotions accompanied with our animal's identity. Thus, true appreciation.
This could be why we all have a different story as it is attached to the individual identity (the animal) rather than the whole identity of all of us (the gift).
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Count Lucanor
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Re: What is a choice?

Post by Count Lucanor »

Socrateaze wrote:
We either are aware of everything that goes on in the mind that leads up to our choice or we're not. I tried to find a video on freewill, which I watched, but was unsuccessful. In it they talk about freewill as one of the topics, saying that most of what we do is decided before it gets into the consciousness. If that is the case, choice is an illusion, even our contemplation.
First thing to do for all of us is to get rid of the notion of a conscious realm, dwelling somewhere inside the brain and serving as the sole command center (conscious or subconscious) of an organism. There was this famous case of a chicken that was beheaded and kept going around for a while as if nothing happened.

I guess the video you're looking for is about an experiment where they concluded that the firing of neurons for making a choice, happened before the subject's awareness of making the choice, which would prove determinism and lack or free will. The media made a big hype out of this, but actually it was a faulty mediocre experiment, which has been criticized. Besides that, if it proved or disproved something, it would not be anything related to agency. Either it would produce results based on the randomness of choice, which is not what happens, or it would ascribe agency to some other being, inside or outside the organism. This last one lacks any support from empirical and rational basis.
The wise are instructed by reason, average minds by experience, the stupid by necessity and the brute by instinct.
― Marcus Tullius Cicero
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