What is a choice?
- Socrateaze
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What is a choice?
Why do people suddenly change their habits with no apparent external influence? Why do others never change them? Does external influence alone have bearing on our choices? Why does someone sometimes wake up the next day and somewhere suddenly feel like they want to change their convictions? If nothing moved them to do so, what did?
- If you can paint the wind, I will tell you the secrets of the soul.
- LuckyR
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Re: What is a choice?
Most folks use their personal experience to extrapolate answers to why others do what they do.Socrateaze wrote:What is a choice? How do they come about? Why do people who are prone to make certain choices suddenly make a different choice? If you have a bad character, why do you sometimes make the same choice as a person with a good character and vice versa? If the environment plays a role, why does it not have the same effect on someone that has a similar personality?
Why do people suddenly change their habits with no apparent external influence? Why do others never change them? Does external influence alone have bearing on our choices? Why does someone sometimes wake up the next day and somewhere suddenly feel like they want to change their convictions? If nothing moved them to do so, what did?
My answer to your question is: because of an INTERNAL influence, hence why it is invisible to observers.
- Socrateaze
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Re: What is a choice?
Hi, Welcome to the thread!LuckyR wrote:Most folks use their personal experience to extrapolate answers to why others do what they do.Socrateaze wrote:What is a choice? How do they come about? Why do people who are prone to make certain choices suddenly make a different choice? If you have a bad character, why do you sometimes make the same choice as a person with a good character and vice versa? If the environment plays a role, why does it not have the same effect on someone that has a similar personality?
Why do people suddenly change their habits with no apparent external influence? Why do others never change them? Does external influence alone have bearing on our choices? Why does someone sometimes wake up the next day and somewhere suddenly feel like they want to change their convictions? If nothing moved them to do so, what did?
My answer to your question is: because of an INTERNAL influence, hence why it is invisible to observers.
My interest is in the internal influence, what it is and how it works. Is it all experience, or is it something else?
- If you can paint the wind, I will tell you the secrets of the soul.
- Sy Borg
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Re: What is a choice?
Good question!Socrateaze wrote:What is a choice? How do they come about? Why do people who are prone to make certain choices suddenly make a different choice? If you have a bad character, why do you sometimes make the same choice as a person with a good character and vice versa? If the environment plays a role, why does it not have the same effect on someone that has a similar personality?
Why do people suddenly change their habits with no apparent external influence? Why do others never change them? Does external influence alone have bearing on our choices? Why does someone sometimes wake up the next day and somewhere suddenly feel like they want to change their convictions? If nothing moved them to do so, what did?
The first layer is capacity for control. Without that, the question is moot. Capacity for self control will obviously vary markedly between individuals, and also within individuals during the course of their lives. We are all limited and damaged in some way and our choices tend to reflect our attempts to live productive lives within those limitations, being aware of social and practical consequences for our mistakes. This is where "know thyself" becomes important, to know your strengths and limitations.
What are these limitations? Impulses - impulses that are strong enough to override conscious preferences. What are impulses? Reflexes. Basically, some agitated little community of cells within your body throws a tantrum and upsets the whole applecart :) That brings us to mindfulness - noticing when internal agitation first occurs and observing the ill effects without feeling compelled to "obey" (ie. alleviate them). This takes a lot of practice because our natural reaction is often to dance to the melodies of our emotions as we did as children rather than stand back and just listen.
If all this was easy, everyone would be doing it. I suspect that in hundreds (or thousands) of years, most people will have that kind of mental control, with their choices less emotional and impulsive, more far-sighted. We today would probably consider them to be rather cold and sterile :)
- Socrateaze
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Re: What is a choice?
I like how you take apart the question. I wonder if we take a look at instinct and how it interacts with our knowledge and experience what turn the conversation would take. I would hate to turn this into a free will conversation, but as a side note, perhaps, where would free will fit into choice, compared to instinct?
- If you can paint the wind, I will tell you the secrets of the soul.
- Count Lucanor
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Re: What is a choice?
We often make inquiries about the concept of choice having in mind highly developed organisms, and sometimes even just humans. But I wonder if we should not start by looking at instances of choice, or what to us humans looks like behavior driven by mechanisms of selection, in the most basic organisms (i. e. bacterias, parameciums, amoebas), go up the ladder and then make inferences on what degree the pure biological and functional necessity plays a role in our human choices, and to what extent other factors like species evolution, individual experience, learning ability, etc., play their part. The most interesting part of this is that it may leave behind the idealist concept of consciousness as the spiritual realm of ideas.Socrateaze wrote:What is a choice? How do they come about? Why do people who are prone to make certain choices suddenly make a different choice? If you have a bad character, why do you sometimes make the same choice as a person with a good character and vice versa? If the environment plays a role, why does it not have the same effect on someone that has a similar personality?
Why do people suddenly change their habits with no apparent external influence? Why do others never change them? Does external influence alone have bearing on our choices? Why does someone sometimes wake up the next day and somewhere suddenly feel like they want to change their convictions? If nothing moved them to do so, what did?
- Socrateaze
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Re: What is a choice?
And what if we go beyond biology? What influences the microscopic? What I am looking to achieve here is not to only look at the so called "spiritual" but how it connects with the material world if so at all. I personally do not believe in abstract things, but rather believe that science has yet to reach into new realms that may be confused for spiritual. It's either all magic or all science. I prefer the vesica pisces of the two meanings, since science is a man-made applied study in anyway of our surroundings.Count Lucanor wrote:We often make inquiries about the concept of choice having in mind highly developed organisms, and sometimes even just humans. But I wonder if we should not start by looking at instances of choice, or what to us humans looks like behavior driven by mechanisms of selection, in the most basic organisms (i. e. bacterias, parameciums, amoebas), go up the ladder and then make inferences on what degree the pure biological and functional necessity plays a role in our human choices, and to what extent other factors like species evolution, individual experience, learning ability, etc., play their part. The most interesting part of this is that it may leave behind the idealist concept of consciousness as the spiritual realm of ideas.Socrateaze wrote:What is a choice? How do they come about? Why do people who are prone to make certain choices suddenly make a different choice? If you have a bad character, why do you sometimes make the same choice as a person with a good character and vice versa? If the environment plays a role, why does it not have the same effect on someone that has a similar personality?
Why do people suddenly change their habits with no apparent external influence? Why do others never change them? Does external influence alone have bearing on our choices? Why does someone sometimes wake up the next day and somewhere suddenly feel like they want to change their convictions? If nothing moved them to do so, what did?
My interest in choice is not the usual genre of biology and conventional science, unless we can connect it somehow with the thread topic. To me, looking at these things are a superficial pursuit, which anyone can achieve, if they put their minds to it. There are some scientists who openly admit not to have the answer of what thoughts really are. This is where I want to kick off. To me everyday science and biology is just the first level of a building with many floors, spiraling downwards. I want to go to the ground floor, if possible.
- If you can paint the wind, I will tell you the secrets of the soul.
- Count Lucanor
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Re: What is a choice?
When dealing with choice, there's no option beyond biology, exception made for culture, which in the end relates to biology. At least from a monist, materialist worldview, which is the only view I see plausible. Outside of that, there may be things like panpsychism, but there's no substantiation for it from inductive or deductive reasoning.Socrateaze wrote:
And what if we go beyond biology? What influences the microscopic?
For me, "spiritual" is the domain of minds and brains, all pretty much material things, so no need for any substance dualism to explain it.Socrateaze wrote:What I am looking to achieve here is not to only look at the so called "spiritual" but how it connects with the material world if so at all. I personally do not believe in abstract things, but rather believe that science has yet to reach into new realms that may be confused for spiritual. It's either all magic or all science. I prefer the vesica pisces of the two meanings, since science is a man-made applied study in anyway of our surroundings.
What matters, I guess, is that the concept of choice is approached from a realistic point of view, that is, of what actually happens when an instance of choice is presented to our consideration. Given the basic assumption that choice is a prerogative of living organisms, and that there's only a physical realm, we must necessarily infer that its study must reach the fields of natural and social sciences, which unfortunately is not easily achieved by anyone as we wished. Science (I'm including here Philosophy) with a method opens up the possibility of revealing the hidden relations, the not so evident aspects of reality, so it can hardly be superficial. And that's the approach that one would assume from reading the inquiries of the OP, so I still don't find very clear where you want to kick off really. Am I guessing right that it's not from the material, physical reality?Socrateaze wrote:My interest in choice is not the usual genre of biology and conventional science, unless we can connect it somehow with the thread topic. To me, looking at these things are a superficial pursuit, which anyone can achieve, if they put their minds to it. There are some scientists who openly admit not to have the answer of what thoughts really are. This is where I want to kick off. To me everyday science and biology is just the first level of a building with many floors, spiraling downwards. I want to go to the ground floor, if possible.
- Socrateaze
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Re: What is a choice?
Not quite, I don't want to chase fantasy anymore than I want to have a mundane discussion about everyday scientific ideas. I think what might help is not only to look at "what is a choice," but also to try and understand why our thoughts are unique, sometimes to the point of genius, for example, Einstein. Why was he different?
I guess, the OP also would like to know along with the question, why choice is so unpredictable. It's like snowflakes, not one is the same; it's like candles, not one leaves the same wax. So, maybe we should not get stuck on, "what is a choice," but like unto the candle, (if it were choice) ask, what is a flame; what is wind; what is gravity.
I am going to make a statement: despite the brain and it's experience, despite someone's character; the outcome can never be predicted with absolute certainty. No matter how well we know someone, there always seems to be something fickle about choice. What I want to know is, why.
- If you can paint the wind, I will tell you the secrets of the soul.
- Khalidmohid45
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Re: What is a choice?
many deciding factors that contribute to a person making a choice. Emotions, Advice from friends and the media all play a role. Emotions are one common factor simply because its a human trait.
Anger, jealousy, happiness, depression, and hate can all cause us to make the right or the wrong decisions, it all depends on how we feel when making a decision. Secondly, the media is a very strong factor in our daily lives simply because it has control over everything. The media can make something good look bad and vice versa. The media a can control your emotions thus controlling your decisions. It can tell you what clothes to wear, what to eat what not to eat, which people or groups are bad and which ones are good. You can also call this pressure from the media. There are also people who are forced into making choices that they don't want to, weather that's from peer pressure or some form of higher authority. lastly, I just wanted to say, when making a decision a person first must not let his emotions dictate the outcome, he/she must use common sense and logic to make their decisions, And when he/she has made decisions they should be able to stand by it strongly.
- Ranvier
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Re: What is a choice?
We pursue knowledge from variety of perspectives about the "outside" environment, yet we know so little about our own insight. The nature of your question: "Why" is inherently subject to metaphysical consideration, as science allows us only to ask "How" questions. Of course we can examine the "obvious" natural causes emanating from expression of our DNA and environmental factors that influence our perception, to our experience in memories and learning. But there is a deeper question that I've been seduced by as well, of the specific reasons for ones thoughts. I was granted by my genetic heritage a healthy dose of imagination, where I can conceptualize the abstract more than an average person, yet I can help but to wonder "why" my imagination is taking me to places outside of my scientific mind...
- Count Lucanor
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Re: What is a choice?
OK, let's leave aside science for a moment. Just for a moment, leaving it there quiet, because we might need it back later. Ironic, though, that Einstein was a scientist.Socrateaze wrote:Hi, Count Lucanor,
Not quite, I don't want to chase fantasy anymore than I want to have a mundane discussion about everyday scientific ideas. I think what might help is not only to look at "what is a choice," but also to try and understand why our thoughts are unique, sometimes to the point of genius, for example, Einstein. Why was he different?
I'm a bit skeptical about the concept of genius as portrayed in popular culture, which is perhaps from where people like Einstein gain their fame, not as exceptionally gifted individuals, but completely out of the reach from the rest of humanity. I'm more inclined to think that his success came from a combination of factors, some by chance, some others regulated by his decisions or the decisions of other parties. It's not that he was different, everyone is different, but not all combination of factors hit success. How many Einsteins or better-than-Einstein went unnoticed and died completely forgotten?
If it weren't unpredictable, would it be a choice? If the fate of every act was predetermined, there would be only a chain reaction of events, none of which would have a subject as its origin. That's what makes choices important, they trigger events that will affect the future lives of other people, including those who make the choices.Socrateaze wrote:I guess, the OP also would like to know along with the question, why choice is so unpredictable. It's like snowflakes, not one is the same; it's like candles, not one leaves the same wax. So, maybe we should not get stuck on, "what is a choice," but like unto the candle, (if it were choice) ask, what is a flame; what is wind; what is gravity.
I'm sure they can't, but there's no other way. A choice is always the intersection of a given set of information and the risks (positive or negative) of an act. There can never be a fixed set of information for every individual mind, because there can never be the exact same circumstances for everyone (including past experiences), and there can never be exactly the same outcomes. It makes life so rich and complex, and I welcome that uncertainty.Socrateaze wrote:I am going to make a statement: despite the brain and it's experience, despite someone's character; the outcome can never be predicted with absolute certainty. No matter how well we know someone, there always seems to be something fickle about choice. What I want to know is, why.
- Socrateaze
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Re: What is a choice?
Yes, but what's a choice in itself? We know what influences us, but not how or why, aside from the usual colorful scientific explanations.Khalidmohid45 wrote:I think the word choice is defined as simply making a decision when faced with two or more responsibilities. For example having to choose between what's right and wrong. Also, I think that there are
many deciding factors that contribute to a person making a choice. Emotions, Advice from friends and the media all play a role. Emotions are one common factor simply because its a human trait.
Anger, jealousy, happiness, depression, and hate can all cause us to make the right or the wrong decisions, it all depends on how we feel when making a decision. Secondly, the media is a very strong factor in our daily lives simply because it has control over everything. The media can make something good look bad and vice versa. The media a can control your emotions thus controlling your decisions. It can tell you what clothes to wear, what to eat what not to eat, which people or groups are bad and which ones are good. You can also call this pressure from the media. There are also people who are forced into making choices that they don't want to, weather that's from peer pressure or some form of higher authority. lastly, I just wanted to say, when making a decision a person first must not let his emotions dictate the outcome, he/she must use common sense and logic to make their decisions, And when he/she has made decisions they should be able to stand by it strongly.
-- Updated August 24th, 2017, 7:14 am to add the following --
I think a choice is more than all of these things, after all, why do they so often surprise us? If I can be surprised by my own choices or thoughts, wherever they may come from, whatever the explanation we choose to use; then I would like to know what part of me is this, which seems to live apart from me at times. I know all about the ID, Ego, and Superego, but that doesn't change that my mind seems to come up with stuff before I do. Sometimes it feels like there is more than one "person" inside.Ranvier wrote:That's a beautiful question Socrateaze
We pursue knowledge from variety of perspectives about the "outside" environment, yet we know so little about our own insight. The nature of your question: "Why" is inherently subject to metaphysical consideration, as science allows us only to ask "How" questions. Of course we can examine the "obvious" natural causes emanating from expression of our DNA and environmental factors that influence our perception, to our experience in memories and learning. But there is a deeper question that I've been seduced by as well, of the specific reasons for ones thoughts. I was granted by my genetic heritage a healthy dose of imagination, where I can conceptualize the abstract more than an average person, yet I can help but to wonder "why" my imagination is taking me to places outside of my scientific mind...
I have found that I can be at war with my other self or I can choose to live in peace with it. Sometimes I feel like my conscious mind is like a child, who thinks it knows what's best; whereas my other self seems older and wiser. Kind of like a child that became Emperor and does not know how to rule, that is not fit for the position, (this is my conscious); yet everybody still feel they need to run everything past this little child Emperor. Many would say it is the other way around, but I truly think in most cases it's not.
-- Updated August 24th, 2017, 10:58 am to add the following --
I simply think the randomness of choice makes it strange enough to enjoy unconventional considerations as to why it is so and what a choice is. It is a mystery, which begs more from us than for the extraordinary to be pinned down like a stick figure with mundane needles. I think none of the explanations, scientific or biological do justice to the mystery of thought and by that I do not say I don't like science - I simply think we have a lot more to learn before we can address this question. Though, I'm not asking for a scientific explanation here; I'm not asking anyone to make a new breakthrough. I cannot help, but to wonder with how many other undiscovered things a choice relates with.Count Lucanor wrote:OK, let's leave aside science for a moment. Just for a moment, leaving it there quiet, because we might need it back later. Ironic, though, that Einstein was a scientist.Socrateaze wrote:Hi, Count Lucanor,
Not quite, I don't want to chase fantasy anymore than I want to have a mundane discussion about everyday scientific ideas. I think what might help is not only to look at "what is a choice," but also to try and understand why our thoughts are unique, sometimes to the point of genius, for example, Einstein. Why was he different?
I'm a bit skeptical about the concept of genius as portrayed in popular culture, which is perhaps from where people like Einstein gain their fame, not as exceptionally gifted individuals, but completely out of the reach from the rest of humanity. I'm more inclined to think that his success came from a combination of factors, some by chance, some others regulated by his decisions or the decisions of other parties. It's not that he was different, everyone is different, but not all combination of factors hit success. How many Einsteins or better-than-Einstein went unnoticed and died completely forgotten?
If it weren't unpredictable, would it be a choice? If the fate of every act was predetermined, there would be only a chain reaction of events, none of which would have a subject as its origin. That's what makes choices important, they trigger events that will affect the future lives of other people, including those who make the choices.Socrateaze wrote:I guess, the OP also would like to know along with the question, why choice is so unpredictable. It's like snowflakes, not one is the same; it's like candles, not one leaves the same wax. So, maybe we should not get stuck on, "what is a choice," but like unto the candle, (if it were choice) ask, what is a flame; what is wind; what is gravity.
I'm sure they can't, but there's no other way. A choice is always the intersection of a given set of information and the risks (positive or negative) of an act. There can never be a fixed set of information for every individual mind, because there can never be the exact same circumstances for everyone (including past experiences), and there can never be exactly the same outcomes. It makes life so rich and complex, and I welcome that uncertainty.Socrateaze wrote:I am going to make a statement: despite the brain and it's experience, despite someone's character; the outcome can never be predicted with absolute certainty. No matter how well we know someone, there always seems to be something fickle about choice. What I want to know is, why.
- If you can paint the wind, I will tell you the secrets of the soul.
- Ranvier
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Re: What is a choice?
I venerate the enticing current of your thoughts...Socrateaze wrote: I think a choice is more than all of these things, after all, why do they so often surprise us? If I can be surprised by my own choices or thoughts, wherever they may come from, whatever the explanation we choose to use; then I would like to know what part of me is this, which seems to live apart from me at times. I know all about the ID, Ego, and Superego, but that doesn't change that my mind seems to come up with stuff before I do. Sometimes it feels like there is more than one "person" inside.
I have found that I can be at war with my other self or I can choose to live in peace with it. Sometimes I feel like my conscious mind is like a child, who thinks it knows what's best; whereas my other self seems older and wiser. Kind of like a child that became Emperor and does not know how to rule, that is not fit for the position, (this is my conscious); yet everybody still feel they need to run everything past this little child Emperor. Many would say it is the other way around, but I truly think in most cases it's not.
- If you can paint the wind, I will tell you the secrets of the soul.
I can't paint the wind but I'm willing to share my secrets of the soul with someone who may appreciate the color of the wind. My mind had always been tormented by the consciousness of more than the seemingly ugly truth of our physical reality. In spite of my scientific mind I draw upon different religions of men, who devoted their thoughts to wisdom of their consciousness to find solace in oasis between the "how" and "why". The enlightenment of perspicuity, if only for a moment, bestowed upon mind in an attempt to comprehend the futility of my Sisyphean strive to achieve wisdom inevitably doomed to become lost in dementia of aging and death. The consciousness of my "child Emperor" is inconsequential of my physical gender, beauty, or aging of the physical body. It's the force of "being" the remains outside of "time" but is here now to experience and learn...the beauty of the "soul" is not within the physical body.
- Socrateaze
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- Favorite Philosopher: George Carlin
Re: What is a choice?
Thank you for your compliment.Ranvier wrote:Socrateaze
I venerate the enticing current of your thoughts...Socrateaze wrote: I think a choice is more than all of these things, after all, why do they so often surprise us? If I can be surprised by my own choices or thoughts, wherever they may come from, whatever the explanation we choose to use; then I would like to know what part of me is this, which seems to live apart from me at times. I know all about the ID, Ego, and Superego, but that doesn't change that my mind seems to come up with stuff before I do. Sometimes it feels like there is more than one "person" inside.
I have found that I can be at war with my other self or I can choose to live in peace with it. Sometimes I feel like my conscious mind is like a child, who thinks it knows what's best; whereas my other self seems older and wiser. Kind of like a child that became Emperor and does not know how to rule, that is not fit for the position, (this is my conscious); yet everybody still feel they need to run everything past this little child Emperor. Many would say it is the other way around, but I truly think in most cases it's not.
- If you can paint the wind, I will tell you the secrets of the soul.
I can't paint the wind but I'm willing to share my secrets of the soul with someone who may appreciate the color of the wind. My mind had always been tormented by the consciousness of more than the seemingly ugly truth of our physical reality. In spite of my scientific mind I draw upon different religions of men, who devoted their thoughts to wisdom of their consciousness to find solace in oasis between the "how" and "why". The enlightenment of perspicuity, if only for a moment, bestowed upon mind in an attempt to comprehend the futility of my Sisyphean strive to achieve wisdom inevitably doomed to become lost in dementia of aging and death. The consciousness of my "child Emperor" is inconsequential of my physical gender, beauty, or aging of the physical body. It's the force of "being" the remains outside of "time" but is here now to experience and learn...the beauty of the "soul" is not within the physical body.
Yes, indeed.
I think we need to mind our children, they often hold the secrets to these things and are many times more in touch with it. It seems at some point in life our physical body and parts of our mind start to diverge. We also like covering up that "child-soul," that often gets hurt, with lies: we become "strong," cruel, callous and indifferent and think we're bearing a form of strength. However, one day, for some practical reason our house of cards come tumbling down. Instead of addressing the "child-soul," we cover it up with more ill "strengths." We seem tough, but inside we are broken. So much of our choices rest on how we treat the child-soul. We can either connect with that and start remembering things, which we have long since forgotten or we can keep on adding layers.
However, this is not quite the secret, but it is a good start.
- If you can paint the wind, I will tell you the secrets of the soul.
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