Are most instinctual human desires redundant?

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Ferzo
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Are most instinctual human desires redundant?

Post by Ferzo »

There are certain desires and compulsions that humans have in order to ensure survival, such as desire to sexual desire, animalistic behaviours that in modern society manifest themselves as desires to be rich, or be popular socially, and virtually everything else that constitutes modern human life. These things were once what was required of humans in order to develop, but now the planet is overpopulated, and wealth is distributed oddly, etc. Point being, should we not all stop living by these instinctual desires, and more primitive desires we have, and all live instead to develop our society and world? Should our goals be to bring about the things we desire like a new house or the things we want to change in the world and in the bigger picture? Only the things we change about the world is what we will be remembered for. We will not be remembered for the things we can achieve in our own lives, regardless of how much determination they may have taken to achieve. I have stopped respecting people for having a positive trait like determination in and of itself, I only respect determination in the right direction, to do the right thing.

As individuals these variables in our own lives are right in front of us and are all we see, like paying bills and getting promotions etc. But do any of these things matter? Is there any value to pursuing these things that directly affect ourselves- or should we all wake up and think of society as a unit, and our daily tasks be directly relevant to the actual progression of society?
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Re: Are most instinctual human desires redundant?

Post by Spectrum »

Given the past, current and future potential of the state of humanity within a Universe, most instinctual human desires are not and will not be redundant.
The instincts of humans are too embedded within the complex brain of 100 billions neurons each with up to 10,000 synapses [connectors] for anyone to get rid of them. The instinct for sexual reproduction and other instincts had evolved from millions or billion of years ago.

What is needed is the individual[s] within humanity must strive for the following;
Anybody can become angry - that is easy, but to be angry with the right person and to the right degree and at the right time and for the right purpose, and in the right way - that is not within everybody's power and is not easy. -Aristotle
To ensure each individual use the various instincts and emotions optimally one must develop effective modulators [inhibitors] to manage the primal impulses.

The human sexual desire cannot be made redundant otherwise the human species will be extinct.
Research on extinct creatures has indicated there must be a minimum quantum to sustain the continuation of the species. Thus if the sexual desires of humans are extinguish then there is a likelihood of the human population falling below the minimal requirement and thus the advent of its extinction.

What is ideal is all individuals should act as individual team member within Team Humanity and aligned toward shared missions, visions and goals and generate optimal results that are win-win to all. How? - that require further philosophical discussions.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
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Ferzo
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Re: Are most instinctual human desires redundant?

Post by Ferzo »

You are correct in saying that sexual desire is not entirely redundant as that would indeed result in extinction. However I feel that most instinctual desires at this point in human development should not consume the lives of the population at the very least. They are so intense that most people fail to see the bigger picture of humanity and it's development, and therefore most will not care to participate or even acknowledge a progressive collective such as the one you describe at the end.
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Re: Are most instinctual human desires redundant?

Post by -1- »

Ferzo, if I understand you right, you are saying that features of the human genome for behaviour used to be evolutionary advantages, but now the advantages are already established by being on top of the food chain and having no natural enemies, so all innate social behaviour patterns that would aid that are redundant, unnecessary.

I say you're right, but they are not a hindrance, either. Most of the behaviour in this set concerns competition within the species, not an inter-species competition. As such, they are still valid, as the competitive behaviours and preferences do allow more refinement of the overall average level of attractive human qualities.

People are becoming taller PARTLY due to this effect; nicer; better-looking; etc., as short people are less likely to find suitable mates, and psychos find it hard to find and settle down with a mate, and less better-looking people similarly are less likely to have enough beer or vodka and orange juice at home to initiate the mating dance to produce offspring.

There is no evolutionary advantage of being tall any more, or being strong, or good-looking, or even smart. But the intramural competition for mates within the species does keep on honing these qualities in the genepool, swimming pool, Liverpool and cesspool of what we call humanity.
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Ferzo
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Re: Are most instinctual human desires redundant?

Post by Ferzo »

1, that is partly what I am saying. I think that these features are of hinderance in the sense that they will consume most people's lives and force them to think and act for perceived benefit of themselves as individuals, even though to progress humanity we should act for the benefit of society as a collective.
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Re: Are most instinctual human desires redundant?

Post by -1- »

Ferzo wrote:1, that is partly what I am saying. I think that these features are of hinderance in the sense that they will consume most people's lives and force them to think and act for perceived benefit of themselves as individuals, even though to progress humanity we should act for the benefit of society as a collective.
It's fine and noble to think that we should concert our personal resources to benefit mankind as a whole.

Unless you have a specific plan, or can find one with a specific, workable, and worthwhile plan, I say the people might as well consume themselves with finding a better body, mind and spouse, for themselves, squeezing out the competition, as this is not a hindrance. It only becomes a hindrance if this stops us or hinders us from acting for society's benefit as a collective. But right now society is well off with people being consumed. In other words, you can't fix something that ain't broke.

Maybe we should make the goal of benefitting society, and plan for it, by making and to make people nicer to each other, and better looking on the average, and less criminal-minded and more sexually available, don't you think?
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Re: Are most instinctual human desires redundant?

Post by The Beast »

Any attempt to define Natural Law is dependent on the definition of Virtue. To me, Virtue is the ability of the Mind to decide the best set of reactions to achieve the most general good.
Here is Aquinas on eating habits:
Eating too expensively; eating too daintily; eating too much; eating too soon; eating eagerly (unusual pleasure).
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Re: Are most instinctual human desires redundant?

Post by LuckyR »

-1- wrote:Ferzo, if I understand you right, you are saying that features of the human genome for behaviour used to be evolutionary advantages, but now the advantages are already established by being on top of the food chain and having no natural enemies, so all innate social behaviour patterns that would aid that are redundant, unnecessary.

I say you're right, but they are not a hindrance, either. Most of the behaviour in this set concerns competition within the species, not an inter-species competition. As such, they are still valid, as the competitive behaviours and preferences do allow more refinement of the overall average level of attractive human qualities.

People are becoming taller PARTLY due to this effect; nicer; better-looking; etc., as short people are less likely to find suitable mates, and psychos find it hard to find and settle down with a mate, and less better-looking people similarly are less likely to have enough beer or vodka and orange juice at home to initiate the mating dance to produce offspring.

There is no evolutionary advantage of being tall any more, or being strong, or good-looking, or even smart. But the intramural competition for mates within the species does keep on honing these qualities in the genepool, swimming pool, Liverpool and cesspool of what we call humanity.
Alas, since you are viewing this topic genetically, that is the most worrisome and pessimistic vantage-point on it. Namely, that in the past accumulating success, either physically, financially or through knowledge acqusition led to a genetic advantage. At the current time, it is a disadvantage. People of higher education tend to earn more and may be exercising both the inclination and the capacity for developing intellect. Unfortunately this cohort breeds at a significantly lower rate than their opposites. Thus the uneducated and financially disadvantaged are acquiring a higher and higher portion of the global gene pool every generation.

What does this mean? I don't know but since impulsiveness is a trait that can thwart accumulation years of education, the current tenor of political, social and tribal discussions IMO are becoming more and more raw and impulsive, there may be a correlation. Extrapolating the current trend in this area forward is not a pretty sight.
"As usual... it depends."
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Re: Are most instinctual human desires redundant?

Post by Alias »

Ferzo wrote:There are certain desires and compulsions that humans have in order to ensure survival, such as desire to sexual desire, animalistic behaviours that in modern society manifest themselves as desires to be rich, or be popular socially, and virtually everything else that constitutes modern human life.
That's quite a lot of unsorted generalization.
'Animalistic' just means alive, doesn't it? We are, after all, animals and cannot become plants or machines through willing.
And then, you are overlooking a major component of the behaviour of social animals, which includes the submission of natural impulses to the appropriate rules (such as marriage bonds for sexual desire individual; sports and games for individual competition; merit-based leadership; earned rewards) and a social structure that can adapt to circumstances as a unit, rather than depending on each member to make the right decisions at the right times.
These things were once what was required of humans in order to develop,
Human development is at least as much a product of co-operation as of competition.
but now the planet is overpopulated, and wealth is distributed oddly, etc.
These etc's are less a result of instinctual drives than of highly organized and stratified civilization - un- and anti- natural behaviour.
How many other animalistic species have these problems?
How long were 'primitive' [undeveloped] prehistoric tribes stable in their number, wealth parity and social structure, compared to the duration of historical nations and empires?
How 'natural' are the desires engendered by mass advertising, and necessitated by industrial employment, and urban concentration?
How doe the animal figure in commuting to work or paying a credit card bill or lusting after an electronic gadget?
... or should we all wake up and think of society as a unit, and our daily tasks be directly relevant to the actual progression of society?
I suspect you have it exactly backwards. Wake up your inner animal; start thinking about what you really need, not what you're told to want.
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Re: Are most instinctual human desires redundant?

Post by Togo1 »

A desire for a fair and just society is just as much an instinct as the desire to acquire wealth. Love is just as instinctual as envy. More generally, our vices are almost always distortions or extensions of our virtures. What is pride but self-respect carried too far? The solution then is not to try and cut out instincts and proceed on as only half-people, but rather to reconcile our natures so as to produce virture rather than vice.
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Re: Are most instinctual human desires redundant?

Post by Maffei »

Ferzo wrote: should we not all stop living by these instinctual desires, and more primitive desires we have, and all live instead to develop our society and world?

- The same purpose was in the foundation of modern society: to deny our primal instincts in favor of higher values. How could this purpose be different now?

- If the way out is relying on something that does not happen in our body, what it would be? A pure soul? What is such thing as necessities of the soul if mine could be different of yours? A mediator institution would be needed? How can we assure that this institution is not attending instinctive necessities as well (in this case, understood as egoistic needs)?
Ferzo wrote: Only the things we change about the world is what we will be remembered for.
This involves a desire to be remembered. Isn’t that a will to power too, I mean, of satisfying a desire? If my goal is to change the world, why being recognized matters so much?
Ferzo wrote: As individuals these variables in our own lives are right in front of us and are all we see, like paying bills and getting promotions etc. But do any of these things matter?
Seems logic that reproducting our actual life does not change anything, but without basic necessities nothing can be done. Nobody can convince a suffering and hungry person to put higher values above his necessities (although he is the one who knows individualism better. His whole body feels what individualism does to society).
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Re: Are most instinctual human desires redundant?

Post by Atreyu »

To me, the OP was kind of meaningless. I mean, who would argue with the OP's position that we should all learn to "rise above our instincts" so to speak?

But the whole question is how?....
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Re: Are most instinctual human desires redundant?

Post by Alias »

Atreyu wrote:To me, the OP was kind of meaningless.
Agree, in part because the terms are undefined (and misconstrued); in part because the desiderata are unspecified.
Which "good" are greater and lesser, and by what standard, according to which value-system?
I mean, who would argue with the OP's position that we should all learn to "rise above our instincts" so to speak?
I would. What is "above" survival? How is a large society of suffering individuals better than a small, happy band?
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Re: Are most instinctual human desires redundant?

Post by Maffei »

Atreyu wrote: I mean, who would argue with the OP's position that we should all learn to "rise above our instincts" so to speak?
Nobody would argue only if everybody pressuposes that mind can separate from the body. But I don't think that this kind of a priori would be adequate in a ethical issue
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