The God Theory
- Thoughts Conquer
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The God Theory
I see three possible alternatives for God.
A) God doesn't exist.
The most likely one, since we have no real evidence of a God.
B) God doesn't care.
If God exists, and he is perfect, I do not see any reason why he should love us. To a mind that understands the universe, we would be as simple as pebbles. We would be so ridiculously easy to predict that God wouldn't even consider us conscious.
If a pebble could speak, I'm sure it would consider itself very intelligent and unique. "Look at me! You can kick me right, left, up, stamp me into the ground, throw me at something, whatever!" And of course humans would respond with nothing, because pebbles cant speak or think and because, well, they're pebbles. See the parallel?
After all, don't we only love people because of complexity? Your spouse, even if you've known them intimately for several decades, is not completely predictable to you. And if he/she is very predictable, it becomes hard to love them as a person. Marriages become dry when predictably is high. Damn, that's a good motto for marriage counseling.
C) God is imperfect.
God created people who are predisposed to sin; pedophiles and psychopaths. And homosexuals, apparently? The pedophile is sexually aroused by children, and we ought to lock these people up, but we have to recognize something; they are born that way. They have no say in the matter. Psychopaths, usually, are born, and cannot feel remorse. Part of the whole Confession thing is that you're supposed to feel bad about what you did. Psychopaths are physically incapable of that.
Or, going deeper, what about extremely intelligent animals? Dolphins are so smart that if they had stayed on land in the long, long ago and developed thumbs then they could've possibly evolved to a species superior to us, and there is evidence of extremely complex dolphin languages, perhaps more complex than our own. Elephants mourn their dead, try to avenge their dead, can get PTSD, shun their blind, be taught to paint, have the cognitive ability of an eight-year-old and have far superior memory than the vast majority of humans. Chimpanzees use all many of tools, have a rich symbol-based language, are extremely close to humans genetically, have 'cultures' (information they pass down to their younger generations) and stage raids on other chimp camps. These are but three examples of animals that are without a doubt conscious. So the question becomes; why don't they have souls? These self-aware creatures don't get souls because...we conquered them? That's it? And these are only three, remember. We have no idea for how low the bar goes for animal consciousness. This, of course, applies to the first human clones as well, who the Church would consider 'soulless' because...?
This all points to a God that did not create a perfect world. It would make more sense that God is simply an extremely powerful being who lied to us about perfection. This fits in with my earlier point as well; if God is perfect then he would not give a damn about pebbles.
The romanticized view of a conversation with God:
Human: "'Sup I'm going to Heaven for making meaningless chain reactions between myself and other pebbles, right?"
God: "Haha you got it champ enjoy your stay forever."
Option 1:
Human: "'Sup I'm going to Heaven for making meaningless chain reactions between myself and other pebbles, right?"
God: "We're sorry; you have reached a number that has been disconnected or is no longer in service."
Option 2:
Human:"'Sup I'm going to Heaven for making meaningless chain reactions between myself and other pebbles, right?"
God: "The person you are calling is unavailable at the moment. Please try again when you are relevant to the entire universe."
Option 3:
Human: "'Sup I'm going to Heaven for making meaningless chain reactions between myself and other pebbles, right?"
God: *chuckles* "Funny story, actually; I lied about Heaven to make you feel better. I can't just break the rules of the universe to create an eternal dimension. You human rapscallions, you."
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Re: The God Theory
If your God is imperfect, say 99.00% perfection then your God is inferior to another God which is 99.1% more perfect. A God that is 99.99% perfect is inferior to a God that is 99.999% perfect as so on.
No one would want their God to be inferior [less perfect] to someone's God or another entity.
Thus when one's God is perfect and absolutely absolute, then there is no room for imperfection and no possibility of another God or Satan to be superior over it.
This is why St. Anselm's defined his ontological God as,
"God is a Being than which nothing greater can be conceived"
Thus your God Theory that God is imperfect fails.
- LuckyR
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Re: The God Theory
Well hold on there, not so fast. Are you proposing that each of the approximately 4200 religion's gods coexist and are in some cosmic competition? Or are you giving religious selection advice (to choose the religion with the "best" god)?Spectrum wrote:God is such that it must be perfect and absolutely absolute with no compromise.
If your God is imperfect, say 99.00% perfection then your God is inferior to another God which is 99.1% more perfect. A God that is 99.99% perfect is inferior to a God that is 99.999% perfect as so on.
No one would want their God to be inferior [less perfect] to someone's God or another entity.
Thus when one's God is perfect and absolutely absolute, then there is no room for imperfection and no possibility of another God or Satan to be superior over it.
This is why St. Anselm's defined his ontological God as,
"God is a Being than which nothing greater can be conceived"
Thus your God Theory that God is imperfect fails.
If you are not polytheistic, then who decided that godly perfection leads to a superoor religious experience? You?
- Thoughts Conquer
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Re: The God Theory
to another God which is 99.1% more perfect. A God that is 99.99% perfect is
inferior to a God that is 99.999% perfect as so on.
No one would want their God to be inferior [less perfect] to someone's God
or another entity.
Thus when one's God is perfect and absolutely absolute, then there is no
room for imperfection and no possibility of another God or Satan to be
superior over it.
This is why St. Anselm's defined his ontological God as,
"God is a Being than which nothing greater can be conceived"
Thus your God Theory that God is imperfect fails.
Literally none of this applies to my argument. First off, you are assuming
there is more than one God. I said "the God Theory" not "the Gods Theory"
as I am describing the two choices I see for one God to exist. Second, even
if you're right about there being more than one God, literally none of this
still applies to my argument. "Well, if God is imperfect, then other Gods
can better than it, so therefore God is perfect."
Maybe there's something to your argument I'm missing, but from what it
seems you haven't really understood my point.
- Ranvier
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Re: The God Theory
It can be for instance a conversation kick-starter or actual inquiry of perspective, granted of course that one has a good imagination capable of picturing what it mast be like to exist as an electron within a black hole or imagine energy. One must be able to first imagine an infinity in an "instant" before such question can be fully appreciated... most people often can't even imagine what it must be like to exist as another human.
-- Updated August 26th, 2017, 1:58 am to add the following --
Obviously, you can reject A. since we are here to ask ourselves such questions
B. depends on your definition of "care". Do you really... take a moment...really care about other people?
C. The closest I can get to imagine a perfection is a sphere
- Thoughts Conquer
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Re: The God Theory
A: Of course we can dismiss this; I just wanted to get the point across that I'm not religious.
B: When I say 'care', I mean put humanity's best options first. Humans don't care about other people because in a purely logical light caring is for idiots and we should only work with people to get ourselves further ahead. However, we humans are deeply flawed and sentimental, so we place a lot of value on these arbitrary things. Good and evil are nonexistent but we act as if they're a substance we can touch and feel.
C: I mean a God that is omniscient, omnipotent and eternal. Sorry for not specifying: I thought it was obvious enough that I didn't have to explain Godly perfection.
- Phorever
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Re: The God Theory
Option 4:Thoughts Conquer wrote:My theory of God
I see three possible alternatives for God.
A) God doesn't exist.
The most likely one, since we have no real evidence of a God.
B) God doesn't care.
If God exists, and he is perfect, I do not see any reason why he should love us. To a mind that understands the universe, we would be as simple as pebbles. We would be so ridiculously easy to predict that God wouldn't even consider us conscious.
If a pebble could speak, I'm sure it would consider itself very intelligent and unique. "Look at me! You can kick me right, left, up, stamp me into the ground, throw me at something, whatever!" And of course humans would respond with nothing, because pebbles cant speak or think and because, well, they're pebbles. See the parallel?
After all, don't we only love people because of complexity? Your spouse, even if you've known them intimately for several decades, is not completely predictable to you. And if he/she is very predictable, it becomes hard to love them as a person. Marriages become dry when predictably is high. Damn, that's a good motto for marriage counseling.
C) God is imperfect.
God created people who are predisposed to sin; pedophiles and psychopaths. And homosexuals, apparently? The pedophile is sexually aroused by children, and we ought to lock these people up, but we have to recognize something; they are born that way. They have no say in the matter. Psychopaths, usually, are born, and cannot feel remorse. Part of the whole Confession thing is that you're supposed to feel bad about what you did. Psychopaths are physically incapable of that.
Or, going deeper, what about extremely intelligent animals? Dolphins are so smart that if they had stayed on land in the long, long ago and developed thumbs then they could've possibly evolved to a species superior to us, and there is evidence of extremely complex dolphin languages, perhaps more complex than our own. Elephants mourn their dead, try to avenge their dead, can get PTSD, shun their blind, be taught to paint, have the cognitive ability of an eight-year-old and have far superior memory than the vast majority of humans. Chimpanzees use all many of tools, have a rich symbol-based language, are extremely close to humans genetically, have 'cultures' (information they pass down to their younger generations) and stage raids on other chimp camps. These are but three examples of animals that are without a doubt conscious. So the question becomes; why don't they have souls? These self-aware creatures don't get souls because...we conquered them? That's it? And these are only three, remember. We have no idea for how low the bar goes for animal consciousness. This, of course, applies to the first human clones as well, who the Church would consider 'soulless' because...?
This all points to a God that did not create a perfect world. It would make more sense that God is simply an extremely powerful being who lied to us about perfection. This fits in with my earlier point as well; if God is perfect then he would not give a damn about pebbles.
The romanticized view of a conversation with God:
Human: "'Sup I'm going to Heaven for making meaningless chain reactions between myself and other pebbles, right?"
God: "Haha you got it champ enjoy your stay forever."
Option 1:
Human: "'Sup I'm going to Heaven for making meaningless chain reactions between myself and other pebbles, right?"
God: "We're sorry; you have reached a number that has been disconnected or is no longer in service."
Option 2:
Human:"'Sup I'm going to Heaven for making meaningless chain reactions between myself and other pebbles, right?"
God: "The person you are calling is unavailable at the moment. Please try again when you are relevant to the entire universe."
Option 3:
Human: "'Sup I'm going to Heaven for making meaningless chain reactions between myself and other pebbles, right?"
God: *chuckles* "Funny story, actually; I lied about Heaven to make you feel better. I can't just break the rules of the universe to create an eternal dimension. You human rapscallions, you."
God evolved from a mathematical point to matter to life to ape to man to machine to The End.
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Re: The God Theory
- Ranvier
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Re: The God Theory
This is why I asked this in the first sentence...Ranvier wrote:It depends on who's asking and why...
And the second sentence, seeing A, B, C
Once one busts out with Omni's... it's not a real thought inquiry.
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Re: The God Theory
Perfection implies stasis, and as far as we know stasis is associated more with death and incapacity than life and empowerment.
- LuckyR
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Re: The God Theory
The Greeks and Romans didn't think so.Greta wrote:Does a deity need to be perfect?
Perfection implies stasis, and as far as we know stasis is associated more with death and incapacity than life and empowerment.
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Re: The God Theory
Wow, there is a LOT to address here, so if I don't get to it all, I apologize. I'll try and hit the big points - B is the correct answer at first, and in terms of why God should be interested in us, your comparison of us to pebbles is a new one to me, and while it has value, it's not the same. We can't communicate with pebbles, and pebbles don't have actions that affect the world around them OF THEIR OWN VOLITION. There is no perfect comparison of us to God - it's not that we are inherently predictable, it's that God is omniscient and omnipresent, so He knows us before we're even born (Jeremiah 1:5 and Psalms 139:16). God's love for us (I'm kind of addressing a couple of your points here) is therefore more complex than ours because God sees us at a heart level (1 Samuel 16:7 and 1 Kings 8:39). If God does indeed know everything perfectly, then He knows us better than we know ourselves, and though God is described as infinitely holy (Isaiah 6:3 and Revelation 4:8), He loves us because He is just that great. That's the whole point, and He has offered forgiveness for us and the possibility of eternity in heaven through Jesus' flawless sacrifice.Thoughts Conquer wrote:My theory of God
I see three possible alternatives for God.
A) God doesn't exist.
The most likely one, since we have no real evidence of a God.
B) God doesn't care.
If God exists, and he is perfect, I do not see any reason why he should love us. To a mind that understands the universe, we would be as simple as pebbles. We would be so ridiculously easy to predict that God wouldn't even consider us conscious.
If a pebble could speak, I'm sure it would consider itself very intelligent and unique. "Look at me! You can kick me right, left, up, stamp me into the ground, throw me at something, whatever!" And of course humans would respond with nothing, because pebbles cant speak or think and because, well, they're pebbles. See the parallel?
After all, don't we only love people because of complexity? Your spouse, even if you've known them intimately for several decades, is not completely predictable to you. And if he/she is very predictable, it becomes hard to love them as a person. Marriages become dry when predictably is high. Damn, that's a good motto for marriage counseling.
C) God is imperfect.
God created people who are predisposed to sin; pedophiles and psychopaths. And homosexuals, apparently? The pedophile is sexually aroused by children, and we ought to lock these people up, but we have to recognize something; they are born that way. They have no say in the matter. Psychopaths, usually, are born, and cannot feel remorse. Part of the whole Confession thing is that you're supposed to feel bad about what you did. Psychopaths are physically incapable of that.
Or, going deeper, what about extremely intelligent animals? Dolphins are so smart that if they had stayed on land in the long, long ago and developed thumbs then they could've possibly evolved to a species superior to us, and there is evidence of extremely complex dolphin languages, perhaps more complex than our own. Elephants mourn their dead, try to avenge their dead, can get PTSD, shun their blind, be taught to paint, have the cognitive ability of an eight-year-old and have far superior memory than the vast majority of humans. Chimpanzees use all many of tools, have a rich symbol-based language, are extremely close to humans genetically, have 'cultures' (information they pass down to their younger generations) and stage raids on other chimp camps. These are but three examples of animals that are without a doubt conscious. So the question becomes; why don't they have souls? These self-aware creatures don't get souls because...we conquered them? That's it? And these are only three, remember. We have no idea for how low the bar goes for animal consciousness. This, of course, applies to the first human clones as well, who the Church would consider 'soulless' because...?
This all points to a God that did not create a perfect world. It would make more sense that God is simply an extremely powerful being who lied to us about perfection. This fits in with my earlier point as well; if God is perfect then he would not give a damn about pebbles.
The romanticized view of a conversation with God:
Human: "'Sup I'm going to Heaven for making meaningless chain reactions between myself and other pebbles, right?"
God: "Haha you got it champ enjoy your stay forever."
Option 1:
Human: "'Sup I'm going to Heaven for making meaningless chain reactions between myself and other pebbles, right?"
God: "We're sorry; you have reached a number that has been disconnected or is no longer in service."
Option 2:
Human:"'Sup I'm going to Heaven for making meaningless chain reactions between myself and other pebbles, right?"
God: "The person you are calling is unavailable at the moment. Please try again when you are relevant to the entire universe."
Option 3:
Human: "'Sup I'm going to Heaven for making meaningless chain reactions between myself and other pebbles, right?"
God: *chuckles* "Funny story, actually; I lied about Heaven to make you feel better. I can't just break the rules of the universe to create an eternal dimension. You human rapscallions, you."
Regarding the problem of evil, that is a very legitimate question, and I plan on posting a YouTube video on my channel Friday about that. By that time, I should be able to put that in this thread by then, and I hope you'll be open to hearing what I have to say there.
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Re: The God Theory
I don't disagree with your choice of B, though citing scripture to "prove" this or that god behavior is flawed logic and, of course proves nothing. That is not to say that anyone else, myself included, can point to opposing proof, there just isn't any data in this area.Speedyj1992 wrote:Wow, there is a LOT to address here, so if I don't get to it all, I apologize. I'll try and hit the big points - B is the correct answer at first, and in terms of why God should be interested in us, your comparison of us to pebbles is a new one to me, and while it has value, it's not the same. We can't communicate with pebbles, and pebbles don't have actions that affect the world around them OF THEIR OWN VOLITION. There is no perfect comparison of us to God - it's not that we are inherently predictable, it's that God is omniscient and omnipresent, so He knows us before we're even born (Jeremiah 1:5 and Psalms 139:16). God's love for us (I'm kind of addressing a couple of your points here) is therefore more complex than ours because God sees us at a heart level (1 Samuel 16:7 and 1 Kings 8:39). If God does indeed know everything perfectly, then He knows us better than we know ourselves, and though God is described as infinitely holy (Isaiah 6:3 and Revelation 4:8), He loves us because He is just that great. That's the whole point, and He has offered forgiveness for us and the possibility of eternity in heaven through Jesus' flawless sacrifice.Thoughts Conquer wrote:My theory of God
I see three possible alternatives for God.
A) God doesn't exist.
The most likely one, since we have no real evidence of a God.
B) God doesn't care.
If God exists, and he is perfect, I do not see any reason why he should love us. To a mind that understands the universe, we would be as simple as pebbles. We would be so ridiculously easy to predict that God wouldn't even consider us conscious.
If a pebble could speak, I'm sure it would consider itself very intelligent and unique. "Look at me! You can kick me right, left, up, stamp me into the ground, throw me at something, whatever!" And of course humans would respond with nothing, because pebbles cant speak or think and because, well, they're pebbles. See the parallel?
After all, don't we only love people because of complexity? Your spouse, even if you've known them intimately for several decades, is not completely predictable to you. And if he/she is very predictable, it becomes hard to love them as a person. Marriages become dry when predictably is high. Damn, that's a good motto for marriage counseling.
C) God is imperfect.
God created people who are predisposed to sin; pedophiles and psychopaths. And homosexuals, apparently? The pedophile is sexually aroused by children, and we ought to lock these people up, but we have to recognize something; they are born that way. They have no say in the matter. Psychopaths, usually, are born, and cannot feel remorse. Part of the whole Confession thing is that you're supposed to feel bad about what you did. Psychopaths are physically incapable of that.
Or, going deeper, what about extremely intelligent animals? Dolphins are so smart that if they had stayed on land in the long, long ago and developed thumbs then they could've possibly evolved to a species superior to us, and there is evidence of extremely complex dolphin languages, perhaps more complex than our own. Elephants mourn their dead, try to avenge their dead, can get PTSD, shun their blind, be taught to paint, have the cognitive ability of an eight-year-old and have far superior memory than the vast majority of humans. Chimpanzees use all many of tools, have a rich symbol-based language, are extremely close to humans genetically, have 'cultures' (information they pass down to their younger generations) and stage raids on other chimp camps. These are but three examples of animals that are without a doubt conscious. So the question becomes; why don't they have souls? These self-aware creatures don't get souls because...we conquered them? That's it? And these are only three, remember. We have no idea for how low the bar goes for animal consciousness. This, of course, applies to the first human clones as well, who the Church would consider 'soulless' because...?
This all points to a God that did not create a perfect world. It would make more sense that God is simply an extremely powerful being who lied to us about perfection. This fits in with my earlier point as well; if God is perfect then he would not give a damn about pebbles.
The romanticized view of a conversation with God:
Human: "'Sup I'm going to Heaven for making meaningless chain reactions between myself and other pebbles, right?"
God: "Haha you got it champ enjoy your stay forever."
Option 1:
Human: "'Sup I'm going to Heaven for making meaningless chain reactions between myself and other pebbles, right?"
God: "We're sorry; you have reached a number that has been disconnected or is no longer in service."
Option 2:
Human:"'Sup I'm going to Heaven for making meaningless chain reactions between myself and other pebbles, right?"
God: "The person you are calling is unavailable at the moment. Please try again when you are relevant to the entire universe."
Option 3:
Human: "'Sup I'm going to Heaven for making meaningless chain reactions between myself and other pebbles, right?"
God: *chuckles* "Funny story, actually; I lied about Heaven to make you feel better. I can't just break the rules of the universe to create an eternal dimension. You human rapscallions, you."
Regarding the problem of evil, that is a very legitimate question, and I plan on posting a YouTube video on my channel Friday about that. By that time, I should be able to put that in this thread by then, and I hope you'll be open to hearing what I have to say there.
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Re: The God Theory
- Thoughts Conquer
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Re: The God Theory
"Pebbles do not influence the world of their own volition." Okay, I know this is an entire different topic but...what makes you think people have any more volition than pebbles?
A quick checklist of what pebbles can do that we can:
Pebbles interact with the environment. Pebbles can be worn down, kicked, dissolved and melted (not easily, though). I would say a pebble has as much awareness as a person. And maybe this will sound ignorant, but if you combine a pebble's interactions over the course of, say, a month, wouldn't that be as complex as at least a few human seconds? Even if there is free will (not that I see any evidence to support it) couldn't you argue that a pebble is just a very, very slow but conscious and intelligent being? After all, your brain is only a computer with reactions inside it. Much more complex reactions than a pebble, sure, but still only reactions.
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