The God Theory

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Steve3007
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Re: The God Theory

Post by Steve3007 »

Speedy:
How does "As a former atheist, I understand some of the thinking behind the general atheistic mentality" sound?
Sounds better. Except that I wouldn't say that there is a "general atheistic mentality". It's a bit like dividing the world into people who play football and people who don't play football and then saying that since you can ask "what are the rules of football?" you can also ask "what are the rules of not-football?". It's best to ask them if they play any other sport and ask for the rules of that.
Spectrum
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Re: The God Theory

Post by Spectrum »

Steve3007 wrote:Sounds better. Except that I wouldn't say that there is a "general atheistic mentality". It's a bit like dividing the world into people who play football and people who don't play football and then saying that since you can ask "what are the rules of football?" you can also ask "what are the rules of not-football?". It's best to ask them if they play any other sport and ask for the rules of that.
Well said.
This is a common issue with theists who insist non-theists must have an ideology and beliefs, i.e. non-theism.
It is that 'zombie parasite' and its desperate psychology that theists must pin non-theists with some ideology and beliefs [like 'not-football'] so they have something to condemn non-theists.

As with your example, it is like theists insisting 'not-football' is some type of sport with its own rules. I will try to remember this example when I encounter theists accusing me of non-theism as some thing evil.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
Steve3007
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Re: The God Theory

Post by Steve3007 »

Thanks Spectrum. I wish I'd thought of that one before. What would we do without sporting analogies, eh?
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Atreyu
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Re: The God Theory

Post by Atreyu »

Speedyj1992 wrote: I feel the need to understand some of your comments more - what do you mean when you say that you "need to be more dismissive"? And I'd like to know what you're getting at with the "symbolic mythos of Jesus", because while I think I know what you're getting at, I would rather hear it from you than assume. But I do want to address one comment that you made, which is that last sentence of the big paragraph in the middle - the Bible does not claim to be "put together" by people, but by God, because it was God who wrote it through different people over the years. Whether or not you agree with that, this is what the Bible claims.
Yes, but it was people who wrote the Bible. And people who "put it together" by selecting 66 scrolls from a collection of far greater than 66. It's the authors themselves who claim God was speaking through them, both in the works included in the Bible as well as in those works that were not...
Speedyj1992
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Re: The God Theory

Post by Speedyj1992 »

Steve3007 wrote:Speedy:
How does "As a former atheist, I understand some of the thinking behind the general atheistic mentality" sound?
Sounds better. Except that I wouldn't say that there is a "general atheistic mentality". It's a bit like dividing the world into people who play football and people who don't play football and then saying that since you can ask "what are the rules of football?" you can also ask "what are the rules of not-football?". It's best to ask them if they play any other sport and ask for the rules of that.
Ok, take 3, how about "I understand aspects of your experience as a former atheist"?

-- Updated November 2nd, 2017, 4:45 pm to add the following --
Atreyu wrote:
Speedyj1992 wrote: I feel the need to understand some of your comments more - what do you mean when you say that you "need to be more dismissive"? And I'd like to know what you're getting at with the "symbolic mythos of Jesus", because while I think I know what you're getting at, I would rather hear it from you than assume. But I do want to address one comment that you made, which is that last sentence of the big paragraph in the middle - the Bible does not claim to be "put together" by people, but by God, because it was God who wrote it through different people over the years. Whether or not you agree with that, this is what the Bible claims.
Yes, but it was people who wrote the Bible. And people who "put it together" by selecting 66 scrolls from a collection of far greater than 66. It's the authors themselves who claim God was speaking through them, both in the works included in the Bible as well as in those works that were not...
"Far" is a bit of an over-statement, but you're of course right that there were books that were left out. Part of that is that there were drastically more copies of the manuscripts used in both Testaments with greater consistency between the documents (I'm not talking about the material, I'm talking about the documents literally saying the same things like different books) that were actually included. Then, from there, there's greater internal consistency that can be understood based on what we know of cultural factors at the time, the author's message, consistency with the other books - the point is, there's more to it than most of us can realize sometimes.

Does that help clarify things?
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Atreyu
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Re: The God Theory

Post by Atreyu »

Speedyj1992 wrote:"Far" is a bit of an over-statement, but you're of course right that there were books that were left out. Part of that is that there were drastically more copies of the manuscripts used in both Testaments with greater consistency between the documents (I'm not talking about the material, I'm talking about the documents literally saying the same things like different books) that were actually included. Then, from there, there's greater internal consistency that can be understood based on what we know of cultural factors at the time, the author's message, consistency with the other books - the point is, there's more to it than most of us can realize sometimes.

Does that help clarify things?
No. I got your point.

My point was that it seems silly to think that there is a sort of a special "holy book" which a God created as a means of communicating with people.

The motive for that was Emperor Constantine's desire to establish Christianity as a state sponsored religion. To unite the political and religious forces of his Empire.

But the real truth is that those 66 scrolls are often less about real Christianity than many texts outside of the Bible...
Steve3007
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Re: The God Theory

Post by Steve3007 »

Speedy:
Ok, take 3, how about "I understand aspects of your experience as a former atheist"?
I appreciate your patience with my pickyness!

But you're still talking as if atheism is "a thing" which, as I said, is a bit like treating not-football as "a thing". But it doesn't matter too much.
Londoner
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Re: The God Theory

Post by Londoner »

Atreyu wrote:
My point was that it seems silly to think that there is a sort of a special "holy book" which a God created as a means of communicating with people.
That would surely be a very minority view; the Bible is not meant to be like the Koran. There is no claim within the Bible that it was created bv God. Isn't the claim rather that it is a record of people's dealings with God, that teaches us about God?

The claim that the Bible is the work of God is more in the sense that this record demonstrates God's purpose, and this theory requires that it was written by men. There is the idea that when we look at the OT and NT now we can see a continual narrative, the progressive development of a message - something that the many individual humans over the ages who wrote the various parts of the Bible could not have planned.
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Kathyd
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Re: The God Theory

Post by Kathyd »

Londoner wrote:The claim that the Bible is the work of God is more in the sense that this record demonstrates God's purpose, and this theory requires that it was written by men. There is the idea that when we look at the OT and NT now we can see a continual narrative, the progressive development of a message - something that the many individual humans over the ages who wrote the various parts of the Bible could not have planned.
In your opinion, is this progressive narrative one of the best proofs of the Christian God?
Londoner
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Re: The God Theory

Post by Londoner »

Kathyd wrote:
Londoner wrote:The claim that the Bible is the work of God is more in the sense that this record demonstrates God's purpose, and this theory requires that it was written by men. There is the idea that when we look at the OT and NT now we can see a continual narrative, the progressive development of a message - something that the many individual humans over the ages who wrote the various parts of the Bible could not have planned.
In your opinion, is this progressive narrative one of the best proofs of the Christian God?
My point was about the way in which the Bible is supposed to prove it; if you read Victorian protestant type 'proofs of God' then they will (usually) be of the kind I have described, not that the Bible in itself is a kind of miraculous object.

Not sure what you mean about 'best' proofs. I do not think the existence of God can be proved at all, most obviously because we are not clear what the 'existence of God' would mean; it would not be 'existence' in the sense we say physical objects exist, or dreams exist, or ideas exist...

On the other hand, the Bible (and other works) do demonstrate how enduring religious ideas are in humans. That is a fact. And I do not see that there is any way we can show that seeing the world via a religious framework is inferior to any other - we all need some metaphysic and there is no way to 'prove' any of them.
Jan Sand
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Re: The God Theory

Post by Jan Sand »

This is not an attempt to prove anything and I certainly do not intend to offend anybody. merely indicate my own way of approaching the problem. When I was a kid many years ago, my family never spoke much about religion and let me discover my own way. Other kids where I lived did attend Catholic schools and told me what they were taught. When I was about seven years old none of that made any sense to me and when they insisted that without their religion everybody would be lying and stealing and murdering, we never attempted to prove or disprove God's existence. At the time I countered that if everybody behaved badly civilization would not be possible. I have since been made aware that throughout all civilizations, including the current one, lying and stealing and murdering is deeply embedded in human behavior and is a prime characteristic of our social life amongst both religious and non religious people.

So I have never been attracted to religion. I am pragmatic and try to form my beliefs on the basis of utility. Aside from the much mentioned, and quite obvious, objectioned to religious passions in society that results in great miseries and frightful violence, when basic understandings of how the universe inter-relates and functions are attributed to an unknown agency presumed only by faith, there is a large neglect to discover how the known basic forces interact that create the actuality we observe. There is no analysis required once one accepts that an unknowable supernatural agent has arranged the way things are.

There is also a language factor in my discomfort with descriptions of a deity. The word "perfect" seems to me undefinable in its application to an unknowable being. And even the word "evil" strikes me as most peculiar. Is it evil or good when one person wins a lottery and everybody else loses? Is it evil when innocent creatures are killed for food but when predators gain nourishment? The word is poorly conceived. Language is always a difficulty in abstract discussions and much of philosophy must wrestle with that problem.
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