Is anything ever rational?

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Londoner
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Re: Is anything ever rational?

Post by Londoner »

Steve3007 wrote:Londoner:
It need not. However, if you wish to put forward a definition that does involve those things then you would have to be more precise than 'will involve'. But even then, since your definition also includes a necessity for omniscience, which we do not have, then your definition already includes the condition 'cannot exist'.
I take this to mean that you are saying that Maxcady10001 is implicitly asserting that a definition of rationality does not exist.
It is like me insisting the definition of 'cat' is 'a non-existent animal' and then asking; Are there such things as cats?
So (I think) you're saying that he/she is falling into a "begging the question" logical fallacy in trying to make a rational argument as to why rationality doesn't exist?
Yes; I'm saying that if they are asking 'is anything rational' they need to explain what they mean by 'rational'. They do not set out a clear definition, but instead imply it is an unusual one - one that involves omniscience. Which obviously nobody has.
Spectrum
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Favorite Philosopher: Eclectic -Various

Re: Is anything ever rational?

Post by Spectrum »

Maxcady10001 wrote:Spectrum, I will try to find such a thesis, but what is the point if there is inter-subjectivity of objectivity. If objectivity is subjective what is the point in even arguing anything?
As I had stated scientific theories are objective, i.e. they are independent of any individual's opinion or belief. However if one were to analyze deeper one will note scientific theories are based on the consensus of subjects [scientists and their peers] thus inter-subjects or intersubjective. As you can see such scientific objectivity [also intersubjectivity] is very useful to humanity but nevertheless subject to critiques.

Another point is objectivity or intersubjective consensus is conditional upon a framework & system and come in degrees & correspondence to reality. As such there is a lot of room for those outside the group to contest [argue] the assumptions and principles of the framework and system.

Note even Scientists argued amongt themselves and whatever is supposedly objective scientific theories has been changed over human history. If objective scientific theories has changed over time, it can only mean they are relative or subjective [changed by subjects].

So there is a good point in arguing over whatever is objective aka intersubjective for the sake of human progress.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
Judaka
Posts: 251
Joined: May 2nd, 2017, 10:10 am

Re: Is anything ever rational?

Post by Judaka »

Maxcady10001 wrote:If anyone believes the following statement is correct, I will no longer post under this topic. Could you please explain some, why it is correct. To add, the inter-subjectivity of objectivity can be used as a way to take apart anything (using inter-subjectivity it has already been proven using the doctor example that there is an objective rational behavior due to objectivity being due to consensus. The Spectrum example given earlier).

Statement ro be determined correct:

Rational behavior can be considered rational objectively, and subjectively the definition of rational behavior must be restricted to the individual's ability to use reason and logic, which does not require complete or perfect information to use.
"Objectivity" as multiple meanings, one is an imperfect attempt to be objective which implies a position of neutrality, where the individual focuses on the facts attempting to avoid having their opinion to involve bias or be altered by interpretation. Objectivity also means "the state of being true regardless of such biases" and because of these definitions, objectivity is a "state of holding a view that...." and that makes it something that only intelligent life or their creations can do.

I don't think that this diminishes the notion of objective truth, which is essentially what you are trying to say, that rational thought has an objectively true meaning.

However "rationality" is not a real thing, it is a concept created by humans and as you said before, you can create a definition and debate it and this means it does fall into the category of being intersubjective. I disagree anything can be objectively rational on this basis, all you can do is create a definition and then argue about what circumstances fits into it.
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Burning ghost
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Joined: February 27th, 2016, 3:10 am

Re: Is anything ever rational?

Post by Burning ghost »

Max -

You are simply conflating "truth" and "mathematical truth" with what is rational. If I am hungry it is rational that I should eat. If I am tired it is rational that I should sleep. Are there circumstances where it would be rational to do against this biological drives? Most certainly! So what?

Yes, please don't post anymore until you've lived among people and conversed enough to understand the objective meanings of words as objective meanings, not merely vague references to some imagined entity. You seem to be able to string words together in the correct order fittingly enough, yet you wish to argue that what you say is irrational because you're being dogmatic over subtleties of language construction.

A single word is meaningless without context. I do not think in "words" I have a thought and express it in a flow of words not as a stop start expulsion of individual words.

Translating and sieving out your real question amounts to you asking "Can we know exactly what is going to happen in the future?" To which the answer is the more immediate the point in the future and our general understanding of the world, the better our judgement is about some said outcome. For example if I see a glass bottle falling onto some rocks from a great height I would tend to make the rational assumption that it would shatter into numerous pieces upon impact. If it didn't then I would be aroused intellectually to reason out why it didn't smash and do so without a tendency to disregard the laws of physics or deem the event to be supernatural and go about my life as if that was the best way to deal with the situation.

If you are trying to turn this into some postmodernist exposition then I'm only interested in partaking by tearing you down piece by piece with enthused vigor.
AKA badgerjelly
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Albert Tatlock
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Joined: October 15th, 2017, 3:23 pm

Re: Is anything ever rational?

Post by Albert Tatlock »

Doing the rational thing is not necessarily doing the best thing. Doing what is most likely to achieve your desired result, basing your decision on the information you have, is the rational thing. Even if it turns out to be the wrong thing to do, as long as your actions are determined by applying logically sound principles to knowledge you believe to be correct , they are rational.
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