Pessimism and Optimism

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Burning ghost
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Pessimism and Optimism

Post by Burning ghost »

Here is a quote from"The Birth of Tragedy", by Nietzsche, to get us started:
Is pessimism inevitably the sign of decline, decadence, waywardness, of wearied, enfeebled instincts? - As once it was with the Hindus, as it seems to be with us 'modern' Europeans? Is there a pessimism of strength? An intellectual predilection for what is hard, terrible, evil, problematic in existence, arising from well-being, overflowing health, the abundance of existence? Is it perhaps possible to suffer from over abundance? A tempting and challenging, sharp-eyed courage that craves the terrible as one craves the enemy, the worthy enemy, against whom it can test its strength? Wishing to learn from it the meaning of 'fear'?
What can we take away from this? Is optimism and pessimism simply about understanding how to direct ourselves toward the inevitable difficulties of existence?

I think we can all agree that both pessimism and optimism can be bad for us. What do we do about recognizing when either turns bad? What goals can we set before us to gauge our attitudes?

I recently had a curious thought about our innate individual optimism and how it functions in our personal development and the develop of society. Meaning, what factors are in place to counter our innate optimism within social structures?

Just in case you don't believe in our natural tendencies toward a more personal optimistic outlook you can test this on anyone you know quite easily. You ask someone how likely it is they think they'll get cancer in their lifetime. Whatever percentage they come up with compared to some pretend 'truth' you tell them will show their innate optimism. If your information is negative they may shift a little to accommodate the new information, let us say they think 50% chance, and you tell them it's actually a 80% chance. They may shift to around 60% chance. Whilst if you told them the chance was only 30% they'd instantly adjust their belief to this new data and be happy to say 30% of getting cancer. This has been tested on a neurological level and we now know this 'optimism' is innate.

This makes sense in terms of humans being explorative creatures and willing to step out of their comfort zones. What I see as a counter to this is our proclivity to follow the group, the social dynamic seems to counter us overstretching, to stop us all being 'manic' creatures thrilled by the idea of exploration.

To sum this though up in a very vague way, I guess I am suggesting something like "The individual is optimistic, and social structures are pessimistic." Meaning group mentality is more inclined to view any new idea as being negative whilst the individual is more likely to view any new idea with optimism. This is because the collective views of new information have a weaker impact, being open to more instances of counter arguments because of varying degrees of what is considered 'good'/'positive'. All individuals will be inclined to the 'optimistic' outlook, so if they deem the information to go against them they'll be repulsed by it, whilst those who see the benefit will adhere to it.

Given this simple dynamic it seems likely that we have to be innately optimistic to balance our various personal perspectives and progress ideas.

What are your thoughts on my ideas here and/or Nietzsche's quote above?

Thanks
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Re: Pessimism and Optimism

Post by Spectrum »

As with the inevitable existence of Yin and Yang, all humans has the potential for optimism and pessimism and both must work in complementarily with each other.

The O&P state of the individual is driven by context and circumstances. A person may be optimistic of going to heaven but pessimistic about peace on Earth. At any one time a person may be optimistic about 100 thing in his life and pessimistic with another 100 things in his life. Schopenhauer stated if the Christians are so optimistic of going to heaven, then I am pessimistic on the contrary.

I believe optimism and pessimism [O&P ] is closely related to love/joy and sadness.

Both optimism and pessimism [O&P] are supported by their respective neural circuits, chemical and whatever the relevant and necessary processes. The O&P state of the individual is trigger by the following;
  • 1. The general activeness of the optimistic or pessimistic circuits. Thus if a person has a more active optimistic generally, he is likely to be optimistic in most things in life except the particular things that s/he is pessimistic.

    2. With knowledge, an individual is specifically pessimistic about a particular thing. Although a person may be overall optimistic but s/he [having the necessary knowledge] is realistically pessimistic the doctor will not be able to cure the mother's Alzheimer's.
O&P has its respective pros and cons in the various contexts but it is wiser to cultivate a greater sense of rational optimism than allowing a cloud of blind pessimism to dominate one's life.

Note Learned Optimism: How to Change Your Mind and Your Life; by Martin E.P. Seligman.

It is wiser to avoid Learned Helplessness.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
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Burning ghost
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Re: Pessimism and Optimism

Post by Burning ghost »

Spectrum -

Humans are wired to be optimistic (it is the "active" component.) That is not really something up for dispute. I was really looking at the impact of this on social groups, and how the differences in perspective naturally inhibit what could otherwise be a genetic flaw?

I am curious what you make of the dynamic I offered between the individual level and the social interaction.
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Re: Pessimism and Optimism

Post by Spectrum »

Burning ghost wrote:Spectrum -
Humans are wired to be optimistic (it is the "active" component.) That is not really something up for dispute. I was really looking at the impact of this on social groups, and how the differences in perspective naturally inhibit what could otherwise be a genetic flaw?

I am curious what you make of the dynamic I offered between the individual level and the social interaction.
It is difficult to state ALL humans are wired to be optimistic. I prefer to discuss optimism and pessimism in its specific context, but it would be wiser to be more rationally optimistic than being blindly pessimistic.

As for groups [large and humanity in general], we can refer to the principles of the Bell Curve where it is likely a small percentile [say 5%] are very highly optimistic while a 5% on the other end are very pessimistic and the rest in between are within a continuum in various degrees depending on the standard deviations and mean.

As observed there is generally a small percentile of humans who are highly optimistic to the extent of blind optimism with hope they will achieve what is expected and the associated pleasure from their achievements.
For example there is a percentile of risk takers [some blind and some rational] who has no qualms risking their lives to explore new lands and seas for its sake with potential for new resources and land for an expansion population. In this sense we can say the majority of pessimistic to various degrees [low to high] and enjoy the benefits of new discoveries.

From an evolutionary psychological perspectives, the small % of highly optimistic risk takers can risk their lives while the majority are 'programmed' to be risk-adverse and focus on reproduction, etc. to support the preservation of the species.
While those who stay behind are pessimistic in exploration, the spouse of the explorers or hunters are optimistic the risk takers will return with food and resources for the family or group.

So there is some evolutionary rationality within group where a small percentile [Bell Curve] are by nature highly optimistic while the rest remain pessimistic [low to high].
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
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Re: Pessimism and Optimism

Post by NeilWallace »

Nietzsche seems to be suggesting there are positive benefits from pessimism. The happy being for Nietzsche who has discovered the secret of happiness has reached a dead end, regardless of the fact that he is optimistic and apparently growing by searching out and exploring whatever the latest challenge is. The deliberate seeking of pessimistic situations is a form of liberation, growth and change through destruction of the current self. Nietzsche seems to be saying that often we have most to learn from fear, failure, pessimism and the supposedly negative states which are often the most trans formative. Hence we instinctively seek these out as a drive to pessimism. Willing our own destruction so that something better can arise from the ashes. Build your houses on Vesuvius etc.
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Albert Tatlock
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Re: Pessimism and Optimism

Post by Albert Tatlock »

Burning ghost wrote:Here is a quote from"The Birth of Tragedy", by Nietzsche, to get us started:
Just in case you don't believe in our natural tendencies toward a more personal optimistic outlook you can test this on anyone you know quite easily. You ask someone how likely it is they think they'll get cancer in their lifetime. Whatever percentage they come up with compared to some pretend 'truth' you tell them will show their innate optimism. If your information is negative they may shift a little to accommodate the new information, let us say they think 50% chance, and you tell them it's actually a 80% chance. They may shift to around 60% chance. Whilst if you told them the chance was only 30% they'd instantly adjust their belief to this new data and be happy to say 30% of getting cancer. This has been tested on a neurological level and we now know this 'optimism' is innate.
Thanks
The end result may well be an increase in optimism but the process bringing about the adjustment of the estimate of likelihood in a favourable direction is purely based on maths and the availability of new information. How come -when the estimate was 50% and the "actual" was 80%, causing the estimate to go in a negative direction- you didn't say, "this has been tested on a neurological level and we now know this 'pessimism' is innate"?
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Burning ghost
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Re: Pessimism and Optimism

Post by Burning ghost »

Albert Tatlock wrote:
Burning ghost wrote:Here is a quote from"The Birth of Tragedy", by Nietzsche, to get us started:
Just in case you don't believe in our natural tendencies toward a more personal optimistic outlook you can test this on anyone you know quite easily. You ask someone how likely it is they think they'll get cancer in their lifetime. Whatever percentage they come up with compared to some pretend 'truth' you tell them will show their innate optimism. If your information is negative they may shift a little to accommodate the new information, let us say they think 50% chance, and you tell them it's actually a 80% chance. They may shift to around 60% chance. Whilst if you told them the chance was only 30% they'd instantly adjust their belief to this new data and be happy to say 30% of getting cancer. This has been tested on a neurological level and we now know this 'optimism' is innate.
Thanks
The end result may well be an increase in optimism but the process bringing about the adjustment of the estimate of likelihood in a favourable direction is purely based on maths and the availability of new information. How come -when the estimate was 50% and the "actual" was 80%, causing the estimate to go in a negative direction- you didn't say, "this has been tested on a neurological level and we now know this 'pessimism' is innate"?
Because the bias is heavily tilted toward optimism. There are neural networks in place that make us believe in the better outcome. We don't question new data if it favours our views, yet if the data goes against our views then we're never ready to accept it (even when presented with the evidence.)

What was really intriguing me was how this plays out in large social interactions.
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Albert Tatlock
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Re: Pessimism and Optimism

Post by Albert Tatlock »

Burning ghost wrote:
What was really intriguing me was how this plays out in large social interactions.
The vote for Brexit is probably an example of optimistic bias.
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Maffei
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Re: Pessimism and Optimism

Post by Maffei »

The pessimist by weakness does not want to come into contact with the reality in which he has a poor perspective. The pessimist by force, on the contrary, wants to look at it, however hard it may be. This type of pessimist can deal with the difficulty, often more easily than the artificial optimist, who wants to skip the problem. Isn't the pessimist by force more optimistic than the optimist by weakness?

I think this is provocation that Nietzsche is trying to put. Optimism and pessimism are just different representational forms of addressing a problem that do not necessarily express one's feeling. At first, they are more concerned with how one reacts to situations than how one lives situations.

But that is not all. I see that Nietzsche is putting the possibility of optimism, when passive, to be the symptom of a bitter and resentful life. It is like hope , in the sense that Spinoza attributes to the term: a sad affection because happiness is adressed to the future. Future is better than the present. The subject is optimistic about the future because he recognizes in his heart that his current life is bad and disgusting.

At this point I would also disagree with the premise that optimism is natural and genetic and would say that the study that Burning Ghost has shown can be related only to how the subject wants to represent himself and others - usually, he wants to have an optimistic image of himself, but this would not necessarily have to do with inner joy.

I would also relate this optimistic response to the possibility of cancer to the superstitious conditioning that many of us have, thinking that just by having positive thinking, this will leave our body less prone to cancer. The guy is afraid to speak that he is afraid because he imagines that this thought can cause cancer.
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Burning ghost
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Re: Pessimism and Optimism

Post by Burning ghost »

Maffei -

scientificamerican.com/article/neurosci ... ight-side/
How can prediction errors help us to understand optimism? Tali Sharot, Ray Dolan and I conducted a study at University College London to investigate how people maintain their optimistic predictions. Participants estimated their likelihood of experiencing 80 negative events including various diseases and criminal acts. They then saw the statistical likelihoods of these events happening to an average person of their age. We then measured how much participants updated their predictions by having them re-estimate their personal likelihoods of experiencing these 80 adverse life events. When given good news -- i.e., a bad outcome is not as likely as you thought -- people responded strongly. But given bad news, they tended to change their prediction only a little bit. Importantly, distinct brain regions seemed to be related to prediction errors for good and bad news about the future. Interestingly, the more optimistic a participant was the less efficiently one of these regions coded for undesirable information. Thus, the bias in how errors are processed in the brain can account for the tendency to maintain rose-colored views.
And here is another study relating to trait optimism:

academic.oup.com/scan/article/11/2/263/ ... diates-the
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Re: Pessimism and Optimism

Post by Tobeornottobe++ »

Recently I have created a discussion community in real life. We sit together and we talk about many things, many subjects. The aim of a debate is to bring two different ideas: explain the first one and give evidences to support it, then put the second topic on the table and do the same thing as the first one. What I noticed is that when I am more closely for a topic, I see that my colleagues have some pessimistic view. Now, I won't go and say I'm right about conclusion. No. I have to listen to all parts and take some side notes in my head. You can see that as an individual, sometimes you are an optimistic person, whilst in a group people might be against what you are trying to prove. Let's look at pessimistic' way of looking to things. First, they look at the facts that they're going to build their assumption on. They won't just go and talk without stopping neglecting the most important factor in debate, which is " the dilemma that they may find themselves later if they listen to the voice of optimism." Secondly, and the most important thing, they consider having a negative mind set is actually a good way to avoid later on side effects or better yet, negative consequences that it will only put in their head "why did I do this in the first place? why I did not listen to the voice of reason?"

You see optimism is a mean of looking at life in a positive mind set, thus drawing a straight line is much better than drawing a curved line. If they are seriously- serious about their goal,they can make it done, if time ticks to everlasting thoughts or not, however motivation here is required. Whilst, those who go the other way around will seem like they are negative people with a lack of believing in self-power to achieve positive results.
The way I see it, Both in some points are right somehow. It depends from one to another, whether the thing is setting for a possible one to reach, or, just a dream will be stuck in a dream catcher.

Throughout history, Philosophers make out of life their syllabus and fountain of knowledge that each time there is something to speak about, they all go to different parties, and their tests subjects are the way things are, and of course, trial combined with experiment from out there (life). This is why, agreeing or disagreeing in a philosophical point might seem a bit lingering from only what suits us all and will work for us as we are only humans, so mistaken we can find ourselves in, whether we agree or disagree, learning and moving on is why we are living in the first place, isn't this what will make our life worth living?
Not sure if I will add any new thing or not, but I thought I should put some light on the matter from my stand point.
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