What is perfect?

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MrCat
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What is perfect?

Post by MrCat »

So I was thinking today that if everything was perfect in this world then nothing would stand out and be considered beautiful. My reasoning behind this was that if everything is perfect therefore beautiful then everything would be the same which means nothing would stand out.

But then I thought, do we really know what perfect is? Since our mind is not perfect, we are not perfect, we are not living in a perfect society or a perfect world then how do we know what perfect is? Example: The human eye can only see 4 colors.. Some animals see more colors than us. We can only imagine that there are probably other colors in reality that we haven't seen but we cannot imagine how they will be like(how they might look). Similarly with perfection...

We haven't seen anything perfect so we can only imagine there is something perfect but we cannot imagine how it will be like, thus, we don't know if something perfect will be beautiful or not.

But my question still stands, what is perfect? If you follow me so far and agree with me then I have another question for you. Since we don't know what perfect actually is then how do we know what is not perfect? On google another word for perfect is without fault, faultless, flawless. At this point I was starting to question if we actually know what flaws are and how can we even find them. The definition for flaw is "a mark, blemish, or other imperfection which mars a substance or object"...

Since we don't know what perfect actually is, how do we know what imperfect is or how can we tell apart which one is a flaw and which one is not? Example: Imagine you don't know what a Dugong is. How do you know what a Dugong isn't? (It's an animal by the way.) To those who didn't know what a Dugong was you could probably point into anything on your desk and ask/wonder if it's a dugong or not. Since you don't know what it is, you cannot know what it's not a dugong. So basically we don't know what perfect isn't either.. and since another word for flaw is imperfection, then we probably only assume what this is aswell.

Now you might say, but how do you know we have no idea what perfect actually is? Its pretty easy, if I ask each one of you what they think perfect is I will probably get a different answer depending on who I ask. This means perfection could be understood by one's imperfect perception of this concept or simply his own point of view. That proves we have no idea what it actually is. So what is perfect? and how we can point out so easily to someone's "flaws"? Are flaws perhaps an illusion?
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Sy Borg
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Re: What is perfect?

Post by Sy Borg »

Perfection is widely considered to be homogeneity.

Since nothing in nature is entirely pure, homogeneity and, thus, perfection are only relative concepts.
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Re: What is perfect?

Post by Alias »

Nothing we know about is perfect. Perfection is an idea, an ideal; the theoretical possibility of achieving the absolute goal of any endeavour, of a thing or product attaining the absolute best of all characteristics associated with it. perfection is an imaginary state to which we can aspire. If we did achieve perfection in some creation, there would be no point in attempting to make that thing ever again. If everything were prefect, there would be no point in doing anything anymore.

-- Updated October 13th, 2017, 8:55 pm to add the following --

But a lot of imperfect things, people, places, achievements and efforts can still be beautiful - awesome, even, for how closely they approach the idea of perfection.
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Re: What is perfect?

Post by Spectrum »

There are two types of perfection for philosophical consideration, i.e.
  • 1. Relative perfection
    2. Absolute perfection
1. Relative perfection
If one's answers in an objective tests are ALL correct that is a 100% perfect score.
Perfect scores 10/10 or 7/7 used to be given to extra-ordinary performance in diving, gymnastics, skating, and the likes. So perfection from the relative perspective can happen and exist within man-made systems of empirically-based measurements.

2. Absolute perfection
Absolute perfection is an idea, ideal, and it is only a thought that can arise from reason and never the empirical at all.
Absolute perfection is an impossibility in the empirical, thus exist only theoretically.
Examples are perfect circle, square, triangle, etc.

Generally, perfection is attributed to God. Any god with less than perfect attributes would be subjected to being inferior to another's god. As such, God has to be absolutely perfect which is the ontological god, i.e. god is a Being than which no greater can be conceived.

So,
  • Absolute perfection is an impossibility
    God must be absolutely perfect
    Therefore God is an impossibility.


Can any theists counter the above?
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
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MrCat
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Re: What is perfect?

Post by MrCat »

Spectrum wrote:
  • Absolute perfection is an impossibility
    God must be absolutely perfect
    Therefore God is an impossibility.


Can any theists counter the above?
Absolute perfection is not an impossibility.. It cannot be proved as of right now because we haven't seen perfection anywhere but it cannot be disproved either, thus, an "impossibility" is an overstatement.
Like I said previously, since we haven't seen perfection, we don't know how it will be like (example with the color). Since we don't know what it is, we can point into anything and wonder if this or that are absolute perfection. That means we cannot imagine how a perfect god will be like, but that doesn't disprove his existence there's a big difference.
Lastly have you ever heard the phrase, The world is not beautiful therefore it is? By this you are forced to look at the individual aspects of the nature of beauty and how it relates to the world. Is dirt beautiful? No.
Ιs a blade of grass beautiful? No. Is a stone beautiful? No. therefore the world is not beautiful. But if you take all that in at the same time you see that beauty is there, one piece of ugly dependent upon another piece of ugly makes it beautiful therefore the world is beautiful. How is that possible? You tell me. It seems that 1+1 doesn't always equals 2.
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Re: What is perfect?

Post by Alias »

I think the above pretty covers all the bases -
unless we imagine God as meeting a man-made set of requirements to test standard.

Or The Chrystalline Entity is real.
Chili
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Re: What is perfect?

Post by Chili »

Concepts are like thumbs. Everyone has one. Everyone has some concept(s) of perfection which have developed through their lives just as their thumbs have.

None are more "right" or "wrong" just as no thumbs are right or wrong.

One person's usage of the world may come closer to a dictionary definition than another's, just as one thumb may look more like a textbook illustration than another thumb.
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Re: What is perfect?

Post by Spectrum »

MrCat wrote:
Spectrum wrote:
  • Absolute perfection is an impossibility
    God must be absolutely perfect
    Therefore God is an impossibility.


Can any theists counter the above?
Absolute perfection is not an impossibility.
Absolute perfection is a theoretical possibility but never an empirical possibility.
Like I say, one can compute and describe a perfect circle in theory but it is impossible for an empirical perfect circle to exists in reality.

Demonstrate to me how a theoretical perfection can be an empirical perfection?
Example show me how can an absolute perfect circle exists in empirical reality?
or another example, 1+1=2 is absolutely mathematically perfect in theory [Pure], however show me where can 1+1=2 be absolutely perfect in empirical reality?
It cannot be proved as of right now because we haven't seen perfection anywhere but it cannot be disproved either, thus, an "impossibility" is an overstatement.
If not now, when?
God supposedly started creation [BB] 13 billion years ago and no one has ever seen God.
You are seemingly buying time to 'ostrich' the inevitable impossibility.
As I had explained above it is impossible for one to "see" [empirical] absolute perfection. Absolutely perfection is only possible in theory, thought, reason and as a belief by faith.
Like I said previously, since we haven't seen perfection, we don't know how it will be like (example with the color). Since we don't know what it is, we can point into anything and wonder if this or that are absolute perfection. That means we cannot imagine how a perfect god will be like, but that doesn't disprove his existence there's a big difference.
The typical escape route - "you cannot disprove God's existence".
Philosophically, the default in always on the positive claimant to prove the positive assertion.

Btw, it is impossible to use the term 'imagine' [image] for non-empirical thing. God [absolute perfection] can be idealized, theoretically reasoned and believed as an idea, ideal, but never as an empirical thing.

The fundamental reason why theists reify an illusory God is due to a desperate [subliminal] existential crisis driven by a "zombie parasite."
Lastly have you ever heard the phrase, The world is not beautiful therefore it is? By this you are forced to look at the individual aspects of the nature of beauty and how it relates to the world. Is dirt beautiful? No.
Ιs a blade of grass beautiful? No. Is a stone beautiful? No. therefore the world is not beautiful. But if you take all that in at the same time you see that beauty is there, one piece of ugly dependent upon another piece of ugly makes it beautiful therefore the world is beautiful. How is that possible? You tell me. It seems that 1+1 doesn't always equals 2.
I have not heard of the above phrase, but I am very familiar with this sort of "dilemma", i.e.
"It Is, It is Not."
This is a matter of different perspectives and the need to change perspective.
For e.g. we can say a diamond is hard and it is not hard.
Generally a diamond is hard but if we shift perspective and consider it as graphite or pure carbon atomically then there is no concept of hardness at all.

If you apply the above dilemma to God, then it is;
"God exists and God do not exists", i.e. is its respective perspective;
'God exists in theory, God do not exists empirically.'
Fact is, it is impossible for God to exists as real in the empirical world.

My argument stands;
  • Absolute perfection is an impossibility, [explained above]
    God MUST imperatively be absolutely perfect
    Therefore God is an impossibility.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
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Re: What is perfect?

Post by Alias »

MrCat wrote: Like I said previously, since we haven't seen perfection, we don't know how it will be like (example with the color). Since we don't know what it is, we can point into anything and wonder if this or that are absolute perfection.
We usually don't make up words for things we haven't encountered, or concept we haven't invented. I mean, it would be kind of an unnecessary burden on the human mind to have to learn words like "ugmumph" and "suppolte", just in case one day an uncatalogued animal comes along that looks ugmumphy, or some new phenonon exactly fits the suppolte model.
Of course we know what perfection is:
Although no one has ever seen a perfect triangle, for Plato this is not a problem. If we can conceive the Idea or Form of a perfect triangle in our mind, then the Idea of Triangle must exist.
philosophynow.org/issues/90/Plato_A_The ... y_of_Forms
That means we cannot imagine how a perfect god will be like, but that doesn't disprove his existence there's a big difference.
However, Plato and all the imperfect images of him, quite obviously represent a man - imperfect and real. All the imperfect triangle pictures represent a form that complies with its mathematical definition: imperfect and fully functional. 2+2 works well enough to cut a shoe pattern for real though imperfect human feet or make change for an imperfect dollar.
So far, no examples of a real God: you can keep drawing, painting, illuminating, sculpting and setting in mosaic tile, pictures of God, but they look like less folically-challenged version of Plato, who may have been imperfect gut did exist. The ideal can be conceived and represented - more or less proximately - by the real.
Lastly have you ever heard the phrase, The world is not beautiful therefore it is?
Is that like the Jesuit testament of faith: "I believe, because it is impossible." or Alice's absurdity: "I have believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast." ?
Ιs a blade of grass beautiful? No. Is a stone beautiful? No.
You need to look more closely at grass and stones and maybe even dirt. Botany and geology are beautiful. It's the biological relationships and processes that are ugly...
to anyone but a biologist.

-- Updated October 15th, 2017, 8:32 am to add the following --

erratum: Line 15 - but, not gut
Those who can induce you to believe absurdities can induce you to commit atrocities. - Voltaire
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Present awareness
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Re: What is perfect?

Post by Present awareness »

Beauty, is in the eye of the beer holder. Something flawed, may be perfectly flawed, and therefore perfect.
Even though you can see me, I might not be here.
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Re: What is perfect?

Post by Alias »

Present awareness wrote:Beauty, is in the eye of the beer holder. Something flawed, may be perfectly flawed, and therefore perfect.
Or it might be a thumb.
Those who can induce you to believe absurdities can induce you to commit atrocities. - Voltaire
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Scribbler60
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Re: What is perfect?

Post by Scribbler60 »

Spectrum wrote:
  • Absolute perfection is an impossibility
    God must be absolutely perfect
    Therefore God is an impossibility.


Can any theists counter the above?
In my theist days I would have countered that God is beyond space, time and human understanding; therefore, our human considerations of "perfection" are limited because our senses are limited.

I don't subscribe to that anymore, but that type of argument - beyond space/time/understanding - seems to be de rigueur in theist circles. It's convenient, too, because suddenly this concept of God cannot be disproven, which leads to the standard Bill O'Reilly argument (I saw him use it in an interview with Richard Dawkins), "Well, you can't disprove God" which is, of course, not an argument at all; it's an admittance of ignorance.

Entirely expected of a Fox commentator. But that's perhaps another discussion for another time.
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Re: What is perfect?

Post by Alias »

God must be absolutely perfect
Does anyone have a citation for this? Whe4e did the idea originate?
None of the old gods were perfect, nor were they expected even to behave very well by human standards.
Who shoved their god way out into space and gave him those unlimited powers and attributes that the christians seem to take for granted now, as basic requirements for deity?
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Re: What is perfect?

Post by Chili »

Anyone who witnesses God's new clothes and does not accept that those clothes are perfect - that person is not fit for his post.
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Re: What is perfect?

Post by Spectrum »

Alias wrote:
God must be absolutely perfect
Does anyone have a citation for this? Whe4e did the idea originate?
None of the old gods were perfect, nor were they expected even to behave very well by human standards.
Who shoved their god way out into space and gave him those unlimited powers and attributes that the christians seem to take for granted now, as basic requirements for deity?
In the olden days, with limited 'vision' any entity more powerful than human beings was regarded as a 'god' which led to polytheism.

Then insecurity and the ego set in where one need to believe in a god that has to be more powerful than the god of others. The usual, 'mine is better, stronger, more powerful than yours'.This inevitably lead to infinite regression. To put a stop of infinite regression an ontological god - 'an entity than which no greater can be conceived' - was invented. This is monotheism.

Eventually all these insecure & ego driven theists has to end up and accept the ontological god, else there will be a more powerful god than what is claimed. Anything less is a cheapskate god.

To avoid infinite regression, God must be absolutely perfect. If one's god is not perfect then another will claim their god is more perfect and thus generate infinite regression. Since absolute perfection is only possible in thought but impossible in reality, thus;
  • Absolute perfection is an impossibility
    God must be absolutely perfect
    Therefore God is an impossibility.
As I had stated, in reality God is an impossibility, but people force god to be possible only for psychological reason driven by a zombie parasite and based on faith.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
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