Lying as a necessity

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Eduk
Posts: 2466
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Lying as a necessity

Post by Eduk »

I don't lie to my son about Santa the tooth fairy or where babies come from.
Santa is the definition of a culturally expected lie, but it is by no means necessary. Personally I find such lies disturbing as for me it questions the free will and therefore humanity of people.
I personally find fashions disturbing, such as the fashion for large 4x4s in London driven by drivers who are inexperienced and not confident behind the wheel. This leads to more stress, more congestion and in extreme cases lose of life.
When your teacher asked you if you would jump off a cliff if everyone was doing it you knew to say no, but in reality it is probably a yes.
Unknown means unknown.
Chili
Posts: 392
Joined: September 29th, 2017, 4:59 pm

Re: Lying as a necessity

Post by Chili »

Eduk wrote:Lying is largely not necessary for success. Depending on how you define success.
For example let us imagine you are a politician. Now I would say that as a politician all the successful ones seem to lie as a matter of course. But would I want to be one of those 'successful' politicians? Would I be happy living their life?
Now this of course depends on your nature. I personally enjoy ethical behaviour and don't conform to the fashion of what is called successful. How much money and power would I trade for a good relationship with my wife, children and my own self respect?
In an agreeable social environment, without a public demanding that one have a squeaky-clean history, lying may not occur to one.

In a different social situation, where reporters are eager to bring politicians down, only those who lie well enough to keep certain things secret will prevail.

Bill Clinton state "I didn't inhale" (marijuana) in the 1990's.

Later, Obama made no secret of having "tried marijuana".

Attitudes had changed.

Bill Clinton took pains to lie "I did not have sex with that woman" under sinister pressure from Gingrich and the burgeoning RW noise machine.

In France, meanwhile, politicians need not make any pretenses about never having had a mistress.
Eduk
Posts: 2466
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Lying as a necessity

Post by Eduk »

Like I said it depends how you define success.
Unknown means unknown.
Chili
Posts: 392
Joined: September 29th, 2017, 4:59 pm

Re: Lying as a necessity

Post by Chili »

Eduk wrote:Like I said it depends how you define success.
"Ne who lies and runs away - lives to lie another day."

"Nothing succeeds like success."

I refer to success in the bottom-line sense that you still get to do it tomorrow.
Eduk
Posts: 2466
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Lying as a necessity

Post by Eduk »

Are we concerned only about our own survival? Or are we also concerned with the survival of our progeny - family - friends - and species as a whole (in that order)?
Unknown means unknown.
Chili
Posts: 392
Joined: September 29th, 2017, 4:59 pm

Re: Lying as a necessity

Post by Chili »

Eduk wrote:Are we concerned only about our own survival? Or are we also concerned with the survival of our progeny - family - friends - and species as a whole (in that order)?
Some lies clearly endanger people. Other lies may be honestly believed to be necessary. Consider the potential that UFO evidence is kept by the government. It might indeed cause chaos, disorder, and dropping financial markets if certain things are revealed by the government. A list of foreign contacts and spies is another example where the mere revelation could lead to many lives being lost. Hiding persecuted individuals in your attic is another example. You are primarily keeping a secret, and you may need to lie in order to keep it best.
Eduk
Posts: 2466
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Lying as a necessity

Post by Eduk »

That simply raised more (probably unanswered) questions.
Why would revealing alien life cause chaos and disorder?
Why do we need spies?
Why are the people in your attic being persecuted?
Unknown means unknown.
Chili
Posts: 392
Joined: September 29th, 2017, 4:59 pm

Re: Lying as a necessity

Post by Chili »

Eduk wrote:That simply raised more (probably unanswered) questions.
Why would revealing alien life cause chaos and disorder?
Why do we need spies?
Why are the people in your attic being persecuted?
Ahem I'll start with the fact that I was alluding to Anne Frank.

Check into ww2, nazis, etc. A lot of mischief is caused by weird thing actually believe rather than outright lies.
Eduk
Posts: 2466
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Lying as a necessity

Post by Eduk »

And why did the Nazis wish to commit genocide?
Unknown means unknown.
Chili
Posts: 392
Joined: September 29th, 2017, 4:59 pm

Re: Lying as a necessity

Post by Chili »

Eduk wrote:And why did the Nazis wish to commit genocide?
Tribes have always endeavored to wipe out other tribes since the night of time.

Germany was in the doldrums after WW1.

Anti-semitism was in the air in various places for a long time.

It's easier to rise to power by stoking hate and fear.

Hitler was crazy.

Take your pick.

Of course the nazis lied as well, but just to grease the skids of other murder, mayhem, and mischief they were up to.
Eduk
Posts: 2466
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Lying as a necessity

Post by Eduk »

So in conclusion lying isn't necessary?
Unknown means unknown.
Maxcady10001
Posts: 460
Joined: September 12th, 2017, 6:03 pm

Re: Lying as a necessity

Post by Maxcady10001 »

How did you get there?
Eduk
Posts: 2466
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Lying as a necessity

Post by Eduk »

Of course the nazis lied as well, but just to grease the skids of other murder, mayhem, and mischief they were up to.
Unknown means unknown.
Maxcady10001
Posts: 460
Joined: September 12th, 2017, 6:03 pm

Re: Lying as a necessity

Post by Maxcady10001 »

Because they lied specifically to justify the holocaust does not rule out their lying in life in general.
Chili
Posts: 392
Joined: September 29th, 2017, 4:59 pm

Re: Lying as a necessity

Post by Chili »

Eduk wrote:So in conclusion lying isn't necessary?
What do you mean by necessary? Can you give another example of something that is "necessary" in the way you mean here?
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