Lying as a necessity

Use this philosophy forum to discuss and debate general philosophy topics that don't fit into one of the other categories.

This forum is NOT for factual, informational or scientific questions about philosophy (e.g. "What year was Socrates born?"). Those kind of questions can be asked in the off-topic section.
Maxcady10001
Posts: 460
Joined: September 12th, 2017, 6:03 pm

Lying as a necessity

Post by Maxcady10001 »

Can a person live a fulfilling life without lying? I do not believe it is possible to live at all without doing so. A person must lie, either to themselves or to others. Yet, being caught lying is considered a shameful act, even though we recognize its necessity. Behind almost every interaction between people is a lie. I would say that the ability of a person to lie will determine success in each of those interactions. One cannot succeed without lying.
(If this post has been done before, ignore it)
User avatar
Albert Tatlock
Posts: 183
Joined: October 15th, 2017, 3:23 pm

Re: Lying as a necessity

Post by Albert Tatlock »

Maxcady10001 wrote: (If this post has been done before, ignore it)
I can't believe no one has broached this subject before so I'm going to take a calculated risk and ignore it. I don't know what others will do but it strikes me as mean to disregard such a reasonable request.
Spectrum
Posts: 5161
Joined: December 21st, 2010, 1:25 am
Favorite Philosopher: Eclectic -Various

Re: Lying as a necessity

Post by Spectrum »

Maxcady10001 wrote:Can a person live a fulfilling life without lying? I do not believe it is possible to live at all without doing so. A person must lie, either to themselves or to others. Yet, being caught lying is considered a shameful act, even though we recognize its necessity. Behind almost every interaction between people is a lie. I would say that the ability of a person to lie will determine success in each of those interactions. One cannot succeed without lying.
(If this post has been done before, ignore it)
There are lots of posts re lying but your view above is a novelty.

There are pros and cons to lying but morally the cons of lying critically outweigh any pros of lying.
"Truth" [encompassing all aspect of human life] is of critical survival value [very high] to humanity. As such any thing that oppose truth, i.e. false and a lie is obvious a liability in general.
Therefore it is not proper to have a standard [especially a moral one] that promote going against truth.

Within a Moral and Ethics Framework and System, we need to set an absolute moral rule [as a guide only] like
'Lying is absolutely not permissible'.

However in practice [ethics] people [being human] will lie and at times must lie to survive, etc.

In this case, since this practical behavior has contravene the moral rule [guide], the one who has lied must justify it to his conscience or other systems [judiciary, social, etc.]

Point here we cannot promote lying [contra truth] freely without the need for some kind of justification and system of prevention, limitations and improvements.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
Maxcady10001
Posts: 460
Joined: September 12th, 2017, 6:03 pm

Re: Lying as a necessity

Post by Maxcady10001 »

Spectrum
Yes, a moral guide is necessary. Not just for the sake of any morality, but for the sake of the lie. If lying was very liberally promoted, the probability of success when lying would drop, but there is an argument to be made that lying is promoted in many of the social interactions we have, and even deemed necessary for success. Interviews, everyday exchanges, dating, politics, family life are all examples of interactions where lying is promoted, although not openly. Lying is the not really secret, secret to a successful interaction. Though it cannot be called a standard. Because if it was the standard, society would suffer tremendously, because of the value of truth.
I don't believe I am calling for the open promotion of lying, only acknowledgement that lying Is necessary for success( possibly the same thing). Success in what? The nature of one's interaction with society, that nature being desirable is success. To live with a desired degree of pleasantness with the rest of society is to tell lies. One could easily say pleasantness for some is to tell the truth under every circumstance, but I would say that is impossible, because of the emotional nature of people.
I would say a justification for lying is a fulfilling life, or a life lived pleasantly among people.
And, since lying is necessary for achieving one's desired outcome in social interactions, one cannot rise to prominence/ power ( positions of governance, management, un-inherited wealthiness) without lying, as lying is an essential part of the interactions that allow to one to acquire such a thing as prominence or power.
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7932
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: Lying as a necessity

Post by LuckyR »

Maxcady10001 wrote:Can a person live a fulfilling life without lying? I do not believe it is possible to live at all without doing so. A person must lie, either to themselves or to others. Yet, being caught lying is considered a shameful act, even though we recognize its necessity. Behind almost every interaction between people is a lie. I would say that the ability of a person to lie will determine success in each of those interactions. One cannot succeed without lying.
(If this post has been done before, ignore it)
Well, yes and no. It is actually quite easy to tell the truth at all times. The trick is that you have to be in a situation where you have no desires or goals in relation to the other individual, thus you have nothing to gain by manipulating them. True, it is unusual to the point of never happening to have been observed before but it is theoretically possible for a lifetime, and quite easy to see in a limited interaction.
"As usual... it depends."
User avatar
Albert Tatlock
Posts: 183
Joined: October 15th, 2017, 3:23 pm

Re: Lying as a necessity

Post by Albert Tatlock »

LuckyR wrote: True, it is unusual to the point of never happening to have been observed before
One has to wonder why it never happens if, as you say, "It is actually quite easy".
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: Lying as a necessity

Post by Steve3007 »

LuckyR:
Well, yes and no. It is actually quite easy to tell the truth at all times. The trick is that you have to be in a situation where you have no desires or goals in relation to the other individual, thus you have nothing to gain by manipulating them.
What you seem to be saying here is that it's possible to never lie to somebody if you have no desires or goals in relation to them and therefore don't see them as a human being. This is true. I hardly ever lie to my car.

---

How about this scenerio:

Your wife has just started to recover from cancer. She has no hair and therefore wears a wig. For the first time in many months she has regained enough self confidence to go out for a drink with her friends. But naturally, she's very fragile and nervous about it.

She decides, after much deliberation and fretting, to wear a dress that you've never really liked much and a wig that you're not too keen on either. Before going out the door she draws a deep breath and asks you: "OK. How do I look?"

Do you lie and say "I think you look fantastic. Knock 'em dead kiddo!"

Or do you tell the truth and say "Well I've always hated that dress and I think that, frankly, that wig looks ridiculous. But if you like them, that's your business. Have fun."

-- Updated Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:40 am to add the following --

Incidentally, the movie "The Invention of Lying" with Ricky Gervais explores the black humour of this kind of situation very effectively.
Eduk
Posts: 2466
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Lying as a necessity

Post by Eduk »

Your wife has just started to recover from cancer. She has no hair and therefore wears a wig. For the first time in many months she has regained enough self confidence to go out for a drink with her friends. But naturally, she's very fragile and nervous about it.
The issue here is delusion due to not being perfect and a lie being the best way out of a situation. Then there are lies on top of lies and delusions to support those lies, so it all ends up a mess.
Of course ideally you would not be delusional in the first place but no one is perfect. In this sense lies are necessary unless you wish to live a life without compromise.
Personally I think if you can limit your self delusions and lies to yourself as much as possible then this will give good results in the long run.
Unknown means unknown.
Chili
Posts: 392
Joined: September 29th, 2017, 4:59 pm

Re: Lying as a necessity

Post by Chili »

If you're on your way to kill Hitler, then people will cheer you later for lying your way across Europe.

If you watch Perry Mason, you'll see people admit to lying all the time and they are usually viewed sympathetically once they come clean.

Police procedurals often show a business-as-usual trudge for the police, of debunking one after another false claim from suspects or witnesses.

It's part of living. It depends if these are *strangers* to some extent.

I saw a very interesting PBS show "Clever Monkeys" in which chimps are shown giving the "snake is coming" call so they can hide some food, and come back later alone.
Spectrum
Posts: 5161
Joined: December 21st, 2010, 1:25 am
Favorite Philosopher: Eclectic -Various

Re: Lying as a necessity

Post by Spectrum »

Maxcady10001 wrote:Spectrum
Yes, a moral guide is necessary. Not just for the sake of any morality, but for the sake of the lie. If lying was very liberally promoted, the probability of success when lying would drop, but there is an argument to be made that lying is promoted in many of the social interactions we have, and even deemed necessary for success. Interviews, everyday exchanges, dating, politics, family life are all examples of interactions where lying is promoted, although not openly. Lying is the not really secret, secret to a successful interaction. Though it cannot be called a standard. Because if it was the standard, society would suffer tremendously, because of the value of truth.
.......
I would say a justification for lying is a fulfilling life, or a life lived pleasantly among people.
And, since lying is necessary for achieving one's desired outcome in social interactions, one cannot rise to prominence/ power ( positions of governance, management, un-inherited wealthiness) without lying, as lying is an essential part of the interactions that allow to one to acquire such a thing as prominence or power.
As I had stated there are pros and cons of lying. What is critical is the moral issue [truth against falsehood] and how to trade off and optimize the situation.

My point is, it is more optimal if we set an absolute moral rule [as a guide] i.e.
'Lying is absolutely not permissible"
then allow for exceptions within Ethics [the practical].
Those who had lied [for their own good reasons] must be made to feel guilt and will have to justify to their conscience, judiciary, social community and other parties involved.

On the other hand if we do not set an absolute moral rule for lying, then there is no limit to lying.
Since there is no limit to lying, and when someone committed a serious lie [shouting Fire! in a pack cinema] then that person can come up with an excuse, look every one is lying all the time and lying is acceptable thing!
In addition, since adult are lying left, right and center, children will be habituated in lying as a norm [indifferent to their conscience] which can transform to lying with very serious consequences to others.

By setting absolute moral standards then allow for justifying exceptions, we are managing morality effectively. Otherwise it is a free for all without limits.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
Chili
Posts: 392
Joined: September 29th, 2017, 4:59 pm

Re: Lying as a necessity

Post by Chili »

It seems pragmatic to judge this by outcomes - who lies, how does it work for them, do people lie more in certain places, etc.

In the most naturalistic settings (and small towns) people notice what each other are doing and there are fewer opportunities and temptations to lie.

Cities, swarming with strangers, would seem to be a natural breeding ground for lies. Where people don't trust each other, or where there is violence and retribution, people who lie are more likely to do well.
Maxcady10001
Posts: 460
Joined: September 12th, 2017, 6:03 pm

Re: Lying as a necessity

Post by Maxcady10001 »

Spectrum
I thought I agreed with you on a moral rule against lying, only saying one's ability to lie (execution and maintenance of the lie) and break the rule, will determine how successful they can be.
Chili
Lying is a lot easier in larger environments than smaller ones, but so is the degree to which one can be successful (positions of power/prominence, possible wealth), and that being the case, the need for lying becomes greater.
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7932
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: Lying as a necessity

Post by LuckyR »

Albert Tatlock wrote:
LuckyR wrote: True, it is unusual to the point of never happening to have been observed before
One has to wonder why it never happens if, as you say, "It is actually quite easy".
Because as I mentioned, it is only possible if you have no goals or desires in relation to the other person. That pretty much rules out most human interactions of any consequence.

-- Updated October 20th, 2017, 10:15 pm to add the following --
Steve3007 wrote:LuckyR:
Well, yes and no. It is actually quite easy to tell the truth at all times. The trick is that you have to be in a situation where you have no desires or goals in relation to the other individual, thus you have nothing to gain by manipulating them.
What you seem to be saying here is that it's possible to never lie to somebody if you have no desires or goals in relation to them and therefore don't see them as a human being. This is true. I hardly ever lie to my car.

---

How about this scenerio:

Your wife has just started to recover from cancer. She has no hair and therefore wears a wig. For the first time in many months she has regained enough self confidence to go out for a drink with her friends. But naturally, she's very fragile and nervous about it.

She decides, after much deliberation and fretting, to wear a dress that you've never really liked much and a wig that you're not too keen on either. Before going out the door she draws a deep breath and asks you: "OK. How do I look?"

Do you lie and say "I think you look fantastic. Knock 'em dead kiddo!"

Or do you tell the truth and say "Well I've always hated that dress and I think that, frankly, that wig looks ridiculous. But if you like them, that's your business. Have fun."

-- Updated Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:40 am to add the following --

Incidentally, the movie "The Invention of Lying" with Ricky Gervais explores the black humour of this kind of situation very effectively.
You are asking a different question : is it OK to lie? As my avatar states, it depends and your example is a classic one in favor of it. I've got no problem with that.
"As usual... it depends."
Eduk
Posts: 2466
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Lying as a necessity

Post by Eduk »

Lying is largely not necessary for success. Depending on how you define success.
For example let us imagine you are a politician. Now I would say that as a politician all the successful ones seem to lie as a matter of course. But would I want to be one of those 'successful' politicians? Would I be happy living their life?
Now this of course depends on your nature. I personally enjoy ethical behaviour and don't conform to the fashion of what is called successful. How much money and power would I trade for a good relationship with my wife, children and my own self respect?
Unknown means unknown.
Maxcady10001
Posts: 460
Joined: September 12th, 2017, 6:03 pm

Re: Lying as a necessity

Post by Maxcady10001 »

Eduk
Even if one confined all of their relationships in this discussion to just their wife and children, it is not likely that there are absolutely no lies told. Common examples are Santa, tooth fairy, and the nature of life (ex: you can be whatever you want, where do babies come from, what is sex) and death. Those are what one would call white lies, but they are still lies. Lying is a tool sometimes necessary for compassion, not only obtaining power. In an earlier post I described success as a desirable outcome of a social interaction, and to achieve such outcomes lying is often necessary. Chili made a point about lying and naturalistic settings, and while it may be easy to be truthful to those in the closest and most natural settings, the less naturalistic the setting and the more interactions you have the more lies that will be told. The best example is work, arguably one of the least naturalistic settings. To maintain work relationships lying is often necessary. If you define success as being a part of even a small healthy work environment lying will be necessary.
Post Reply

Return to “General Philosophy”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021