Lying as a necessity
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Lying as a necessity
(If this post has been done before, ignore it)
- Albert Tatlock
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Re: Lying as a necessity
I can't believe no one has broached this subject before so I'm going to take a calculated risk and ignore it. I don't know what others will do but it strikes me as mean to disregard such a reasonable request.Maxcady10001 wrote: (If this post has been done before, ignore it)
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Re: Lying as a necessity
There are lots of posts re lying but your view above is a novelty.Maxcady10001 wrote:Can a person live a fulfilling life without lying? I do not believe it is possible to live at all without doing so. A person must lie, either to themselves or to others. Yet, being caught lying is considered a shameful act, even though we recognize its necessity. Behind almost every interaction between people is a lie. I would say that the ability of a person to lie will determine success in each of those interactions. One cannot succeed without lying.
(If this post has been done before, ignore it)
There are pros and cons to lying but morally the cons of lying critically outweigh any pros of lying.
"Truth" [encompassing all aspect of human life] is of critical survival value [very high] to humanity. As such any thing that oppose truth, i.e. false and a lie is obvious a liability in general.
Therefore it is not proper to have a standard [especially a moral one] that promote going against truth.
Within a Moral and Ethics Framework and System, we need to set an absolute moral rule [as a guide only] like
'Lying is absolutely not permissible'.
However in practice [ethics] people [being human] will lie and at times must lie to survive, etc.
In this case, since this practical behavior has contravene the moral rule [guide], the one who has lied must justify it to his conscience or other systems [judiciary, social, etc.]
Point here we cannot promote lying [contra truth] freely without the need for some kind of justification and system of prevention, limitations and improvements.
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Re: Lying as a necessity
Yes, a moral guide is necessary. Not just for the sake of any morality, but for the sake of the lie. If lying was very liberally promoted, the probability of success when lying would drop, but there is an argument to be made that lying is promoted in many of the social interactions we have, and even deemed necessary for success. Interviews, everyday exchanges, dating, politics, family life are all examples of interactions where lying is promoted, although not openly. Lying is the not really secret, secret to a successful interaction. Though it cannot be called a standard. Because if it was the standard, society would suffer tremendously, because of the value of truth.
I don't believe I am calling for the open promotion of lying, only acknowledgement that lying Is necessary for success( possibly the same thing). Success in what? The nature of one's interaction with society, that nature being desirable is success. To live with a desired degree of pleasantness with the rest of society is to tell lies. One could easily say pleasantness for some is to tell the truth under every circumstance, but I would say that is impossible, because of the emotional nature of people.
I would say a justification for lying is a fulfilling life, or a life lived pleasantly among people.
And, since lying is necessary for achieving one's desired outcome in social interactions, one cannot rise to prominence/ power ( positions of governance, management, un-inherited wealthiness) without lying, as lying is an essential part of the interactions that allow to one to acquire such a thing as prominence or power.
- LuckyR
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Re: Lying as a necessity
Well, yes and no. It is actually quite easy to tell the truth at all times. The trick is that you have to be in a situation where you have no desires or goals in relation to the other individual, thus you have nothing to gain by manipulating them. True, it is unusual to the point of never happening to have been observed before but it is theoretically possible for a lifetime, and quite easy to see in a limited interaction.Maxcady10001 wrote:Can a person live a fulfilling life without lying? I do not believe it is possible to live at all without doing so. A person must lie, either to themselves or to others. Yet, being caught lying is considered a shameful act, even though we recognize its necessity. Behind almost every interaction between people is a lie. I would say that the ability of a person to lie will determine success in each of those interactions. One cannot succeed without lying.
(If this post has been done before, ignore it)
- Albert Tatlock
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Re: Lying as a necessity
One has to wonder why it never happens if, as you say, "It is actually quite easy".LuckyR wrote: True, it is unusual to the point of never happening to have been observed before
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Re: Lying as a necessity
What you seem to be saying here is that it's possible to never lie to somebody if you have no desires or goals in relation to them and therefore don't see them as a human being. This is true. I hardly ever lie to my car.Well, yes and no. It is actually quite easy to tell the truth at all times. The trick is that you have to be in a situation where you have no desires or goals in relation to the other individual, thus you have nothing to gain by manipulating them.
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How about this scenerio:
Your wife has just started to recover from cancer. She has no hair and therefore wears a wig. For the first time in many months she has regained enough self confidence to go out for a drink with her friends. But naturally, she's very fragile and nervous about it.
She decides, after much deliberation and fretting, to wear a dress that you've never really liked much and a wig that you're not too keen on either. Before going out the door she draws a deep breath and asks you: "OK. How do I look?"
Do you lie and say "I think you look fantastic. Knock 'em dead kiddo!"
Or do you tell the truth and say "Well I've always hated that dress and I think that, frankly, that wig looks ridiculous. But if you like them, that's your business. Have fun."
-- Updated Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:40 am to add the following --
Incidentally, the movie "The Invention of Lying" with Ricky Gervais explores the black humour of this kind of situation very effectively.
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Re: Lying as a necessity
The issue here is delusion due to not being perfect and a lie being the best way out of a situation. Then there are lies on top of lies and delusions to support those lies, so it all ends up a mess.Your wife has just started to recover from cancer. She has no hair and therefore wears a wig. For the first time in many months she has regained enough self confidence to go out for a drink with her friends. But naturally, she's very fragile and nervous about it.
Of course ideally you would not be delusional in the first place but no one is perfect. In this sense lies are necessary unless you wish to live a life without compromise.
Personally I think if you can limit your self delusions and lies to yourself as much as possible then this will give good results in the long run.
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Re: Lying as a necessity
If you watch Perry Mason, you'll see people admit to lying all the time and they are usually viewed sympathetically once they come clean.
Police procedurals often show a business-as-usual trudge for the police, of debunking one after another false claim from suspects or witnesses.
It's part of living. It depends if these are *strangers* to some extent.
I saw a very interesting PBS show "Clever Monkeys" in which chimps are shown giving the "snake is coming" call so they can hide some food, and come back later alone.
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Re: Lying as a necessity
As I had stated there are pros and cons of lying. What is critical is the moral issue [truth against falsehood] and how to trade off and optimize the situation.Maxcady10001 wrote:Spectrum
Yes, a moral guide is necessary. Not just for the sake of any morality, but for the sake of the lie. If lying was very liberally promoted, the probability of success when lying would drop, but there is an argument to be made that lying is promoted in many of the social interactions we have, and even deemed necessary for success. Interviews, everyday exchanges, dating, politics, family life are all examples of interactions where lying is promoted, although not openly. Lying is the not really secret, secret to a successful interaction. Though it cannot be called a standard. Because if it was the standard, society would suffer tremendously, because of the value of truth.
.......
I would say a justification for lying is a fulfilling life, or a life lived pleasantly among people.
And, since lying is necessary for achieving one's desired outcome in social interactions, one cannot rise to prominence/ power ( positions of governance, management, un-inherited wealthiness) without lying, as lying is an essential part of the interactions that allow to one to acquire such a thing as prominence or power.
My point is, it is more optimal if we set an absolute moral rule [as a guide] i.e.
'Lying is absolutely not permissible"
then allow for exceptions within Ethics [the practical].
Those who had lied [for their own good reasons] must be made to feel guilt and will have to justify to their conscience, judiciary, social community and other parties involved.
On the other hand if we do not set an absolute moral rule for lying, then there is no limit to lying.
Since there is no limit to lying, and when someone committed a serious lie [shouting Fire! in a pack cinema] then that person can come up with an excuse, look every one is lying all the time and lying is acceptable thing!
In addition, since adult are lying left, right and center, children will be habituated in lying as a norm [indifferent to their conscience] which can transform to lying with very serious consequences to others.
By setting absolute moral standards then allow for justifying exceptions, we are managing morality effectively. Otherwise it is a free for all without limits.
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Re: Lying as a necessity
In the most naturalistic settings (and small towns) people notice what each other are doing and there are fewer opportunities and temptations to lie.
Cities, swarming with strangers, would seem to be a natural breeding ground for lies. Where people don't trust each other, or where there is violence and retribution, people who lie are more likely to do well.
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Re: Lying as a necessity
I thought I agreed with you on a moral rule against lying, only saying one's ability to lie (execution and maintenance of the lie) and break the rule, will determine how successful they can be.
Chili
Lying is a lot easier in larger environments than smaller ones, but so is the degree to which one can be successful (positions of power/prominence, possible wealth), and that being the case, the need for lying becomes greater.
- LuckyR
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Re: Lying as a necessity
Because as I mentioned, it is only possible if you have no goals or desires in relation to the other person. That pretty much rules out most human interactions of any consequence.Albert Tatlock wrote:One has to wonder why it never happens if, as you say, "It is actually quite easy".LuckyR wrote: True, it is unusual to the point of never happening to have been observed before
-- Updated October 20th, 2017, 10:15 pm to add the following --
You are asking a different question : is it OK to lie? As my avatar states, it depends and your example is a classic one in favor of it. I've got no problem with that.Steve3007 wrote:LuckyR:What you seem to be saying here is that it's possible to never lie to somebody if you have no desires or goals in relation to them and therefore don't see them as a human being. This is true. I hardly ever lie to my car.Well, yes and no. It is actually quite easy to tell the truth at all times. The trick is that you have to be in a situation where you have no desires or goals in relation to the other individual, thus you have nothing to gain by manipulating them.
---
How about this scenerio:
Your wife has just started to recover from cancer. She has no hair and therefore wears a wig. For the first time in many months she has regained enough self confidence to go out for a drink with her friends. But naturally, she's very fragile and nervous about it.
She decides, after much deliberation and fretting, to wear a dress that you've never really liked much and a wig that you're not too keen on either. Before going out the door she draws a deep breath and asks you: "OK. How do I look?"
Do you lie and say "I think you look fantastic. Knock 'em dead kiddo!"
Or do you tell the truth and say "Well I've always hated that dress and I think that, frankly, that wig looks ridiculous. But if you like them, that's your business. Have fun."
-- Updated Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:40 am to add the following --
Incidentally, the movie "The Invention of Lying" with Ricky Gervais explores the black humour of this kind of situation very effectively.
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Re: Lying as a necessity
For example let us imagine you are a politician. Now I would say that as a politician all the successful ones seem to lie as a matter of course. But would I want to be one of those 'successful' politicians? Would I be happy living their life?
Now this of course depends on your nature. I personally enjoy ethical behaviour and don't conform to the fashion of what is called successful. How much money and power would I trade for a good relationship with my wife, children and my own self respect?
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Re: Lying as a necessity
Even if one confined all of their relationships in this discussion to just their wife and children, it is not likely that there are absolutely no lies told. Common examples are Santa, tooth fairy, and the nature of life (ex: you can be whatever you want, where do babies come from, what is sex) and death. Those are what one would call white lies, but they are still lies. Lying is a tool sometimes necessary for compassion, not only obtaining power. In an earlier post I described success as a desirable outcome of a social interaction, and to achieve such outcomes lying is often necessary. Chili made a point about lying and naturalistic settings, and while it may be easy to be truthful to those in the closest and most natural settings, the less naturalistic the setting and the more interactions you have the more lies that will be told. The best example is work, arguably one of the least naturalistic settings. To maintain work relationships lying is often necessary. If you define success as being a part of even a small healthy work environment lying will be necessary.
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