Circumcision. Seeking opinions based on personal experiences

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Belindi
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Re: Circumcision. Seeking opinions based on personal experiences

Post by Belindi » April 3rd, 2018, 1:27 pm

Eduk wrote:
Deform means to change the shape of something. But it has negative connotations. If I used the term deform I would be implying lose of function. For example I would say I cut my nails not I deformed my nails.
According to Wikipedia 75% of adult males in the USA are circumsiced. So what has been the effect?
Please note I am not saying no harm is ever done. I am simply asking for proportion. For example their is difference between breaking a toe and stubbing a toe.
Okay Eduk lets call it mutilation. Some nasty people mutilate dogs to make them look fashionable. Other nasty people mutilate kids to make them into Jews, Muslims, and non-masturbating Christians.

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Re: Circumcision. Seeking opinions based on personal experiences

Post by Eduk » April 3rd, 2018, 1:38 pm

People who are circumcised masturbate just fine.
I don't really understand this but according to Wikipedia some 75% of males are circumcised in the USA. I didn't realise circumcision was a big Christian thing, but you live and learn.

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Re: Circumcision. Seeking opinions based on personal experiences

Post by Fooloso4 » April 3rd, 2018, 1:51 pm

Eduk:
F4 I would suspect the number one reason for circumcising was because everyone else you indentify with is doing it. That's the number one reason for most things in my experience.
I think there is some truth to this, but before everyone else was doing it some one or group within the the larger group did it. It may have been a mark of difference within a group that in the case of the Jews became a mark of the group itself, where it becomes a mark of the covenant between God and his people. It may have had something to do with bodily cleanliness and spiritual purity. Like other bodily markings it may have had aesthetic value, although beauty is in the eye of the beholder and the Greeks saw it as a disfigurement.
Also I would be slightly less holier than thou.
Thou as in me? I am neutral when it comes to the circumcision of an infant. What I objected to is what kathyd did to her eleven year old son for the express purpose of keeping him from masturbating and to curtail the pleasure of his future partners. One does not have to be holier than thou to object to the pain she put him through (she describes it in detail), or the humiliation she put him through (yes, that is an assumption, but he would have to be the exception for it not to be true), or the ambiguity about sex she was likely to have imparted to him (her ambiguity is clear from her posts).

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Re: Circumcision. Seeking opinions based on personal experiences

Post by Belindi » April 3rd, 2018, 1:54 pm

Eduk wrote:
April 3rd, 2018, 1:38 pm
People who are circumcised masturbate just fine.
I don't really understand this but according to Wikipedia some 75% of males are circumcised in the USA. I didn't realise circumcision was a big Christian thing, but you live and learn.
Well this thread has alerted me to Christian disapproval of sexual pleasures, especially the original post in all its gory glory.

Eduk you copied Foolosos4:
F4 I would suspect the number one reason for circumcising was because everyone else you indentify with is doing it. That's the number one reason for most things in my experience.
I agree with Fooloso4. The effect of religious authority is like bromide in the water supply for purposes of social control. It's not only religions that control people who have not been taught how to be free; it's also dirty tricks politics , and mass manipulation of all sorts via popular media.

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Re: Circumcision. Seeking opinions based on personal experiences

Post by Eduk » April 3rd, 2018, 2:09 pm

Thou as in me?
No that wasn't directed at you.
Well this thread has alerted me to Christian disapproval of sexual pleasures
That is a well known Christian theme which doesn't surprise me.
It's not only religions that control people who have not been taught how to be free; it's also dirty tricks politics , and mass manipulation of all sorts via popular media.
I agree. Religions aren't special.

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Re: Circumcision. Seeking opinions based on personal experiences

Post by Fooloso4 » April 3rd, 2018, 2:21 pm

Belindi:
Eduk you copied Foolosos4:
F4 I would suspect the number one reason for circumcising was because everyone else you indentify with is doing it. That's the number one reason for most things in my experience.
I agree with Fooloso4. The effect of religious authority is like bromide in the water supply for purposes of social control. It's not only religions that control people who have not been taught how to be free; it's also dirty tricks politics , and mass manipulation of all sorts via popular media.
I quoted Eduk and agreed in part. I think it clear that kathyd did it in order to control her son, but I don’t think control explains why it has been practiced since ancient times, although it may have played a role somewhere along the line. Most male infants who are circumcised seem to get along without impairment once the initial pain wears off, but in ancient times even among the Jews it was adults who were circumcised. So maybe there is more to the idea that control is involved, even when it is done voluntarily as a matter of sacrifice.

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Re: Circumcision. Seeking opinions based on personal experiences

Post by Eduk » April 3rd, 2018, 2:49 pm

Yes sacrifice is a common source of influence. After all who in their right mind would chop off bits of their anatomy in order to join and group and then afterwards tell anyone they wanted to leave said group.

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Re: Circumcision. Seeking opinions based on personal experiences

Post by Fooloso4 » April 3rd, 2018, 4:25 pm

Eduk:
Yes sacrifice is a common source of influence.
A few possible connections:

In the story of Dinah the men of the city agree to be circumcised because they want to mate with the daughters of Jacob. Was their sacrifice ignoble?

The trope of severance begins when God takes a rib from Adam, destroying his original wholeness, man is no longer complete in and of himself and so must find unity with woman.
That is why a man cleaves from his father and mother and cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh. (Genesis 2:24)
The same word ‘cleave’ is used as both a way of separating and uniting. Does man take a cleaver, so to speak, to his sexual organ, a sacrifice of the flesh, to unite with God?

Another foundational story is Abraham’s willingness to sacrifice his “only son”. This sacrifice is held up as exemplary of faith. But this is not the first sacrifice of the flesh Abraham is required to make. The first is circumcision, a sign of God’s covenant with Abraham and his descendents:
Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.” (Genesis 17:14)
Another play on cutting. The phrase ‘make a covenant’ literally means ‘cut a covenant’.

Of course we do not know how much of this is redacted, cut together from various stories over time. One wonders what was sacrificed for the sake of unity. (My own play on words regarding the various sources brought together to create the story that has come down to us).

I will cut it out now (sorry, couldn’t help it), and stop the topic derailment.

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Re: Circumcision. Seeking opinions based on personal experiences

Post by Kathyd » April 3rd, 2018, 10:41 pm

Well, like I said in my OP, if you look at the history of all religions there is a constant theme of curtailing sex, either as a means of achieving some blissful state, or else simply as a means of dedicating oneself to God or some other higher power. And circumcision certainly seems to fit into this general theme.

Also, I did my research and, to my surprise, I learned that circumcision was not necessarily common throughout western culture historically, and that it definitely only became mainstream, particularly in the U.S., because it was seen as a means of helping boys not masturbate, which during that time was generally considered "sinful", or at least lustful or indulgent. One of the main proponents, oddly enough, was a Dr Kellogg, the same guy who invented the cereal. You have to understand that the current libertine views on sex are quite recent, and during the 1800's people had a far more conservative view on human sexuality. Masturbation was considered a "psychological disorder" and circumcision was seen as a means of helping to fix it.

And you also have to consider why the foreskin. Why the most sensitive and painful part of the body to sacrifice to God? Why not a toenail, your hair, a tooth, or even a finger or toe? Cutting off the foreskin as a means of dedicating yourself to God would be morbid at face value, were it not for the fact that it reduces sexual pleasure. It's obvious that this particular body part was chosen as a means of sacrifice precisely because of its primary function of enhancing sexual pleasure.

So it seems obvious to me that circumcision began as a means of reducing or controlling sex, given all of the above.

However, I'm not trying to "control" my son, as someone here suggested, nor do I have a particularly puritanical view on masturbation. I had him circumcised simply because I thought it was in his best interests, based on his particular situation and behavior. If it wasn't for the religious aspect and the fact that his habit was getting a bit deviant and obsessive, then I probably would have chose to keep him intact.

At any rate, it's a personal decision and nobody has the right to judge anyone else concerning it. Calling it "child abuse" and suggesting prison terms is certainly not helpful to the discussion.

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Re: Circumcision. Seeking opinions based on personal experiences

Post by LuckyR » April 4th, 2018, 3:29 am

Belindi wrote:
April 2nd, 2018, 3:36 pm
LuckyR wrote:
"Drastic" obviously to you (and many others), but many more disagree. It is a matter of opinion.
I am surprised that cutting bits off little boys is not against the law in Oregon. I'd be surprised that people mutilating little boys are not thrown into prison in Oregon.

If it's in your moral code that excising children's foreskins is acceptable for other than gravest medical reasons then your moral code is disgusting.
Oregon, as opposed to where? Are you implying that the great state of Oregon is an outlier? Where do you reside? Is circumcision illegal there? If not, it seems to me like you have a lot of work to do at home before you start commenting about communities with which you are unfamiliar.

As to my moral code, I didn't have any sons so I never had to cross that bridge. On the subject of my profession, it is completely ethical to provide a community accepted service if you are qualified and skilled, which I am.

You are free to be disgusted, as are those who oppose abortion, for example. The most practical way of expressing your disgust is to apply it to your personal life choices and those of your family. I wholeheartedly support you in that.
"As usual... it depends."

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Re: Circumcision. Seeking opinions based on personal experiences

Post by Belindi » April 4th, 2018, 5:05 am

LuckyR wrote:
April 4th, 2018, 3:29 am
Belindi wrote:
April 2nd, 2018, 3:36 pm
LuckyR wrote:



I am surprised that cutting bits off little boys is not against the law in Oregon. I'd be surprised that people mutilating little boys are not thrown into prison in Oregon.

If it's in your moral code that excising children's foreskins is acceptable for other than gravest medical reasons then your moral code is disgusting.
Oregon, as opposed to where? Are you implying that the great state of Oregon is an outlier? Where do you reside? Is circumcision illegal there? If not, it seems to me like you have a lot of work to do at home before you start commenting about communities with which you are unfamiliar.

As to my moral code, I didn't have any sons so I never had to cross that bridge. On the subject of my profession, it is completely ethical to provide a community accepted service if you are qualified and skilled, which I am.

You are free to be disgusted, as are those who oppose abortion, for example. The most practical way of expressing your disgust is to apply it to your personal life choices and those of your family. I wholeheartedly support you in that.
Lucky , it's precisely that you are so level headed and that it's entirely believable that you are qualified and skilled that I am concerned that you take a neutral stance. I don't regard you personally as a jobsworth and so my guess is that you are professionally neutral about circumcision because you have absorbed this professional rationale of neutrality. Professions have their own moral inertias. Please consider that, as Eduk put it , no child would circumcise himself or herself.

I live in England and am Scottish. I am a qualified nurse and I have never happened to help a surgeon to circumcise anyone. I doubt if any decent surgeon in the NHS would circumcise for reasons of religion or fashion. The medics' moral inertia is welfare and such status as medics have is exercised on behalf of the patient not his parents or his church. I imagine Oregon to be progressive and free , based on end of life choice which the state of Oregon extends to consenting adults, therefore I expected Oregon unlike the UK to support all rights of the child. The UK is backward about male child circumcision. I guess this must be because of 1. public apathy and 2. because in the UK there is a culture of being very polite about individuals' religions.

I surmise that the UK is backward about condemning cruel religious rituals because of religious intolerance in past centuries, and because here there is a real problem of integrating immigrants. Admittedly there's a worse degree of religious abuse than infant circumcision; there have been instances of child torture to rid the child of evil spirits although that is culpable in the UK.
I have real hopes that the better educated younger generation will eschew elective circumcision of infants.

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Re: Circumcision. Seeking opinions based on personal experiences

Post by Belindi » April 4th, 2018, 5:32 am

Kathyd wrote:
April 3rd, 2018, 10:41 pm
Well, like I said in my OP, if you look at the history of all religions there is a constant theme of curtailing sex, either as a means of achieving some blissful state, or else simply as a means of dedicating oneself to God or some other higher power. And circumcision certainly seems to fit into this general theme.

Also, I did my research and, to my surprise, I learned that circumcision was not necessarily common throughout western culture historically, and that it definitely only became mainstream, particularly in the U.S., because it was seen as a means of helping boys not masturbate, which during that time was generally considered "sinful", or at least lustful or indulgent. One of the main proponents, oddly enough, was a Dr Kellogg, the same guy who invented the cereal. You have to understand that the current libertine views on sex are quite recent, and during the 1800's people had a far more conservative view on human sexuality. Masturbation was considered a "psychological disorder" and circumcision was seen as a means of helping to fix it.

And you also have to consider why the foreskin. Why the most sensitive and painful part of the body to sacrifice to God? Why not a toenail, your hair, a tooth, or even a finger or toe? Cutting off the foreskin as a means of dedicating yourself to God would be morbid at face value, were it not for the fact that it reduces sexual pleasure. It's obvious that this particular body part was chosen as a means of sacrifice precisely because of its primary function of enhancing sexual pleasure.

So it seems obvious to me that circumcision began as a means of reducing or controlling sex, given all of the above.

However, I'm not trying to "control" my son, as someone here suggested, nor do I have a particularly puritanical view on masturbation. I had him circumcised simply because I thought it was in his best interests, based on his particular situation and behavior. If it wasn't for the religious aspect and the fact that his habit was getting a bit deviant and obsessive, then I probably would have chose to keep him intact.

At any rate, it's a personal decision and nobody has the right to judge anyone else concerning it. Calling it "child abuse" and suggesting prison terms is certainly not helpful to the discussion.
Kathy, but you have attempted to control his behaviour , which is a parents duty . My objection and horror is that you did it in such a coldly calculated medieval way. To be fair, I can think of worse ways to influence one's child, such as emotional pressure to persuade them that they are bad or deviant. If you had simply lost your temper and taken a stick to his back this would have been better than your coldly- considered rationalised response; a physical beating in your anger would have meant to him simply that you were bad- tempered---over and done with---you don't like his excessive masturbation: he does like it----end of story.
then I probably would have chose to keep him intact.
The tone of this is inappropriate to what happened. "Intact" is not what I'd call not cutting up my little son, making him bleed for goodness sake woman! What exactly did you do? Did you wield the knife yourself or did you get some sanctified paramedic to do the cutting and blood letting?

You did bad but kids are very forgiving. You will have opportunities to show him that you are sorry and that you will do better in future.

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Re: Circumcision. Seeking opinions based on personal experiences

Post by Fooloso4 » April 4th, 2018, 9:11 am

Kathyd:
At any rate, it's a personal decision and nobody has the right to judge anyone else concerning it.
At age eleven it should be a personal decision, his not yours, or more precisely, his with parental consent if he wanted the procedure. Since you brought the issue here to a public forum you have opened your decision to public scrutiny.
… it was seen as a means of helping boys not masturbate …
The key word is “was”. Why rely on outdated information from a hundred years ago? It has nothing to do with difference in attitudes toward sex, it has to do with current medical evidence as to whether circumcision does or does not curtail masturbation. It doesn’t.
… if you look at the history of all religions there is a constant theme of curtailing sex …
This is simply not true, and irrelevant since, according to your original post, you did not do it for religious reasons.
… his habit was getting a bit deviant and obsessive …
At what point does a behavior become a bit deviant and obsessive? Did he do it in public? Did it disrupt family dinner? Keep him from leaving the house? Or was it just more frequent than what you think is normal?

There is such a thing as compulsive behavior but it is not caused by the experience of pleasure and not cured by reducing pleasure. If his behavior was compulsive he will not stop or will be channeled in another direction that may or may not be more acceptable to you, but none of this addresses the underlying problem.

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Re: Circumcision. Seeking opinions based on personal experiences

Post by Kathyd » April 4th, 2018, 7:31 pm

Belindi wrote:
April 4th, 2018, 5:32 am
Kathy, but you have attempted to control his behaviour , which is a parents duty . My objection and horror is that you did it in such a coldly calculated medieval way. To be fair, I can think of worse ways to influence one's child, such as emotional pressure to persuade them that they are bad or deviant. If you had simply lost your temper and taken a stick to his back this would have been better than your coldly- considered rationalised response; a physical beating in your anger would have meant to him simply that you were bad- tempered---over and done with---you don't like his excessive masturbation: he does like it----end of story.
Really? I think most people would agree that my "rationalized response" was preferable to beating him with a stick! I can only hope this was said at least partly in jest.
At age eleven it should be a personal decision, his not yours, or more precisely, his with parental consent if he wanted the procedure.
Well, according to Scripture a boy is not considered old enough to be responsible for his actions until the age of 12. And today, most societies agree that parents are responsible for their children until they are 18. Eleven is far too young to understand all the implications surrounding this issue, don't you think?
This is simply not true, and irrelevant since, according to your original post, you did not do it for religious reasons.
Actually, if you read my OP, you'd see I listed it as reason #2. It wasn't as important as the practical considerations, but I do like the idea of dedication to God.
At what point does a behavior become a bit deviant and obsessive? Did he do it in public? Did it disrupt family dinner? Keep him from leaving the house? Or was it just more frequent than what you think is normal?
It was more frequent than normal. And I already mentioned repeatedly finding very inappropriate things on his computer. There was lots of porn including ones depicting strange fetishes, and even pictures of myself modelling swimwear and lingerie. So yes, his behavior was becoming deviant imho, otherwise I might have written if off as "normal".

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Re: Circumcision. Seeking opinions based on personal experiences

Post by Belindi » April 4th, 2018, 8:02 pm

Kathyd wrote:
Really? I think most people would agree that my "rationalized response" was preferable to beating him with a stick! I can only hope this was said at least partly in jest.
If you had reacted with spontaneous anger there would remain the possibility that after you calmed down you may have reflected that perhaps heroic further action was not advisable and might have felt remorseful about hitting your little boy. As it was you began with cold calculation and followed through apparently without any remorse.

Do you know the difference between rationalising and behaving rationally?
It was more frequent than normal. And I already mentioned repeatedly finding very inappropriate things on his computer. There was lots of porn including ones depicting strange fetishes, and even pictures of myself modelling swimwear and lingerie. So yes, his behavior was becoming deviant imho, otherwise I might have written if off as "normal".
I fear that you are going to be sorry that you over- reacted. It's a pity that your opinion was not humble but was arrogant, especially when it involved a sharp knife. All is not lost and he will probably forgive you if you are truly sorry.

I am glad that you aired this experience of yours as male genital mutilation is a current problem that needs addressing.

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